# "Desecration" of the Eucharist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144 "2011-03-18T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/661 "2011-03-25T19:30:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I just explained to you that you don’t need a contract or an agreement for a gift to be conditional. On what basis do you reject that? On the basis of your complete failure to prove that receiving communion is conditional. How can it it be conditional if one party has no idea these conditions exist? Are you going to cite your imaginary missal again? Is that all you’ve got? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/662 "2011-03-25T19:31:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You have not corrected that. You have not demonstarted that any binding conditions exist. You cannot claim terms exist when the recipient has not been made aware of, or agreed to any terms. That’s not correct. A gift can be conditional even if the recipient can show he was not aware of the conditions of the gift. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/663 "2011-03-25T19:32:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agreed. > > Except for your continued fixation on a legally binding agreement. You seem to believe that a conditional gift can’t exist unless the giver and the recipient both explicitly agree that the gift is given and received with conditions. > > That’s not true. You have not proven that a communion wafre is a conditional gift. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/664 "2011-03-25T19:34:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Amen: used to express solemn ratification (as of an expression of faith) or hearty approval (as of an assertion).” > > From [here.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/amen) First of all, you acn’t expect that everybody will understand the word that way, and secondly, the only arguable assent is to the statement that the wafer is the “body of Christ,” which is not the same as assenting to any understanding about what to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/665 "2011-03-25T19:35:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You have not proven that a communion wafre is a conditional gift. I have a funny feeling you think that “proof” has to include proof that the Cook kid was aware of the conditions. You understand that whether he was aware of it or not is not the dispositive factor, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/666 "2011-03-25T19:42:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > First of all, you acn’t expect that everybody will understand the word that way… Well, I take **Hentor** at his word; he’s a bright guy but didn’t realize that’s what “amen” meant. On the other hand, it’s the only dictionary definition, and on the last hand, how might someone unaware of the meaning learn to answer “Amen,” when confronted with the proffered host? > [@](#): > > …and secondly, the only arguable assent is to the statement that the wafer is the “body of Christ,” which is not the same as assenting to any understanding about what to do with it. Correct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/667 "2011-03-25T19:49:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have a funny feeling you think that “proof” has to include proof that the Cook kid was aware of the conditions. I’m saying no conditions ever existed at all. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/668 "2011-03-25T19:55:46Z")
Am I the only one who thinks this long discussion about whether taking the wafer would be theft, and whether taking it from Cook would be robbery, is uninteresting? It’s what, two cents’ worth of cracker? It doesn’t seem like a debate, but an argument for the sake of arguing. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/669 "2011-03-25T19:59:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What missal? Prove there was a missal? Prove it had such instructions. Why is it that I’ve never been given one of those things in all the times I’ve attended catholic masses? I have seen programs, but I have never seen anything with these allegedly explicit instructions. If they exist, I know for a fact they aren’t ubiquitous, so why are we leaping to accept **Bricker’s** purely hypothetical missal as some sort of proven fact? What the point of this post? You _already_ argued the missal aspect. You’re being deliberately obtuse at this point. I seriously doubt that you’ve never been “given” a missal. They’re those things in the pews, with the Bible readings and such. (Unless, of course, you’ve never actually been to a Catholic Mass–which, from your responses in this thread I’m beginning to believe.) On the first page, every single one I have ever seen has instructions for non-Catholics receiving Communion. No, I don’t have a cite. This is just personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/670 "2011-03-25T20:00:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m saying no conditions ever existed at all. And you’ve been told that you’re wrong by someone who knows more about the law and Catholicism than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/671 "2011-03-25T21:20:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m saying no conditions ever existed at all. That the guidelines are in every missal: [Rules On Receiving Communion – Our Catholic Faith](http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/sacraments/receivingcommunion.html) Must be Catholic to receive: [http://www.catholic.com/library/Who\_Can\_Receive\_Communion.asp](http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp) Must consume immediately upon receiving it: [http://stalphonsus-sea.org/Eucharist.aspx](http://stalphonsus-sea.org/Eucharist.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/672 "2011-03-25T21:55:10Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > And you’ve been told that you’re wrong by someone who knows more about the law and Catholicism than you do. I’ve been shown no cite (and he does not know more about Catholicism,). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/673 "2011-03-25T21:56:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That the guidelines are in every missal: [Rules On Receiving Communion – Our Catholic Faith](http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/sacraments/receivingcommunion.html) > > Must be Catholic to receive: [http://www.catholic.com/library/Who\_Can\_Receive\_Communion.asp](http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp) > > Must consume immediately upon receiving it: [http://stalphonsus-sea.org/Eucharist.aspx](http://stalphonsus-sea.org/Eucharist.aspx) Cite that these guidelines have any legally binding significance? ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/674 "2011-03-25T21:56:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ve been shown no cite (and he does not know more about Catholicism,). I’d say my seven year old niece knows more about Catholicism than you, since you did not even know that a consecrated host is know as the Eucharist. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/675 "2011-03-25T21:57:45Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks this long discussion about whether taking the wafer would be theft, and whether taking it from Cook would be robbery, is uninteresting? It’s what, two cents’ worth of cracker? > > It doesn’t seem like a debate, but an argument for the sake of arguing. I would agree with this. However, I would point out that the dollar value of an object is an accurate measure of that object’s worth to someone. For example if I come home and find my apartment robbed, the loss of the last photographs I have of my grandmother would be far more devastating than the loss of my far more expensive DVD player. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/676 "2011-03-25T21:59:57Z")
It’s not known as “A eucharist.” I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic schools, my wife is Catholic, my kids are Catholic, my kids go to a Catholic school and I have a BA in religion. What makes **Bricker** moreknowledgeable about Catholicism than me? ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/677 "2011-03-25T22:06:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic schools, my wife is Catholic, my kids are Catholic, my kids go to a Catholic school and I have a BA in religion. What makes **Bricker** moreknowledgeable about Catholicism than me? You’re going to stand by that? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I went to Catholic schools too, am married to a catholic have kids in catholic school right now and have only heard the “eucharist” referred to as the ceremony, not the host. Now let’s quit with the juvenile gotcha game and return to the topic. It seems that you didn’t pay attention to anything related to Catholicsm, yet you are proclaiming yourself an expert. Kind of funny, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/678 "2011-03-25T22:40:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s not known as “A eucharist.” > I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic schools, my wife is Catholic, my kids are Catholic, my kids go to a Catholic school and I have a BA in religion. \ And you’ve never seen one of [these](http://www.ocp.org/products/TM-P) in the pew? NEVER EVER? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/679 "2011-03-25T22:46:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite that these guidelines have any legally binding significance? I already gave you the cite outlining restricted gifts. When you see a citation about giving gifts with conditions, and a cite about the Church’s conditions for receiving the Eucharist, what additional piece of information do you feel you lack? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/680 "2011-03-25T22:50:35Z")
Diogenes: What would you regard the combination of the Epiclesis and the Words of Institution during the Eucharistic Prayer of the Canon, combined with the Words of Administration, in this context? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=35)