# "Desecration" of the Eucharist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144 "2011-03-18T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/101 "2011-03-18T21:42:38Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “Not sharing a belief” is indeed not an insult. Going beyond not sharing a belief to treat with contempt what the believers consider should be treated with reverence, however wrong you may find their belief, is very likely an insult to them. Believers are entitled to respect for their right to believe. They are not entitled to respect for the beliefs themselves, and Christians are no more prone to respect the beliefs of other religions (or to respect non-belief), than Myers is. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/102 "2011-03-18T21:51:04Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > IMO, he’s saying that whatever the beliefs or lack thereof of Milosevic, radicals among the Serbian Orthodox were at the heart of much of the atrocities. So when an atheist dictator who has purged his government of Christians decides to wage a campaign of genocide against both Muslims and Christians, this is “a state sponsored genocide of Muslims by Christians”? I guess I’ll just have to file that away under things that **Dio** and I disagree on. However, as I recall this started with Myers claiming that Catholics had committed mass-murder 70 years ago. I’m aware of many instances of mass-murder in that time that involved Catholics, but they were always the victims. (Bosnian War, Nazi period, various occasions in Latin America). So I’m still not sure why Myers chose to say that Catholics committed mass murder 70 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/103 "2011-03-18T22:59:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So when an atheist dictator who has purged his government of Christians decides to wage a campaign of genocide against both Muslims and Christians, this is “a state sponsored genocide of Muslims by Christians”? I guess I’ll just have to file that away under things that **Dio** and I disagree on. However, as I recall this started with Myers claiming that Catholics had committed mass-murder 70 years ago. I’m aware of many instances of mass-murder in that time that involved Catholics, but they were always the victims. (Bosnian War, Nazi period, various occasions in Latin America). So I’m still not sure why Myers chose to say that Catholics committed mass murder 70 years ago. How about thirtyfive years ago? The ruling dictator of Argentina, when it was suggested that he be promoted to Generalissimo, said that he would rather be known as “El Catoliquisimo” (“The Most Catholic”, like the king of Spain during the Inquisicion.) He , supported publicly and continually by the papal Nuncio, Msgr. Pio Laghi, tortured and killed at least thirty thousand people. Msgr Laghi was seen by several priests and nuns, themselves torture victims, touring the main torture center (The Naval School of Mechanics) in company with the Comandante of the NSCM, who was his tennis partner and whose son he personally baptized. Laghi was accused in an Italian court of war crimes, but promoted to Cardinal by Wojtyla and given diplomatic immunity. When The Most Catholic General was tried for war crimes, he excused his thugs kidnapping, raping, torturing and killing the 66 year old founder of the Grandmothers of the Disappeared with a line out of GK Chesterton, modified to fit the occasion: “A terrorist is not just someone who makes bombs. A terrorist is anyone who holds an idea that is contrary to our western Christian civilization.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/104 "2011-03-18T23:12:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, Catholic Lite, whatever. It’s certainly closer then 20th-century Germany. Considering the fact that the Serbs slaughtered Croatian Catholics and considered any Serb who converted to Catholicism to be a Croat, that’s a fairly ridiculous statement. You might as well call the government of Iran to be “Sunni Lite”. ---
**Author:** ![lemac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f19dbf/32.png) [@lemac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemac)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/105 "2011-03-18T23:22:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > However, as I recall this started with Myers claiming that Catholics had committed mass-murder 70 years ago. I’m aware of many instances of mass-murder in that time that involved Catholics, but they were always the victims. (Bosnian War, Nazi period, various occasions in Latin America). [Well, there was the time that the Catholic Croats murdered 300,000+ Serbs and force-converted 200,000 to Catholicism…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_persecution_of_Serbs) ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/106 "2011-03-18T23:23:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s a reasonable point, but did you have any examples of Christians desecrating idols in, say, the last hundred years or so? Ever hear of Cullen Davis? ([T. Cullen Davis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Cullen_Davis)). Tried to murder his wife, ended up killing his 12-yeaqr-old stepdaughter and his wife´s boyfriend. Hired a hotshot lawyer, got off, thanked Jesus. . Quote from TruTV Crime “NOTORIOUS MURDERS \> NOT GUILTY?” "Davis announced shortly after his second acquittal that he was turning his life over to Jesus. With the help of a Dallas evangelist he smashed more than a million dollars worth of jade, ivory and gold objects because they honored what he said were “false gods.” Davis had a large collection of SEAsian religious art. I remember seeing him on TV. accompanied by a smirking beefy pompadour in a thousand dollar suit, (Billy Sol Something?) running over his collection with a car and setting the remains on fire. When there were various threads some years back denouncing the Taliban over the Buddha statues I was going to bring up the fact that Davis’s pieces were just as artistic, and just as sacred to some people, as the Buddhas, but my computer in those days was dialup and slow so I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/107 "2011-03-18T23:42:02Z")
Missed edit: Or try [http://www.christianaggression.org/](http://www.christianaggression.org/) Quote: Lessons from Conversion by Burning Temples and Cutting the Head of Buddha Statues in Korea Over the last decade, a large number of Buddhist temples in Korea had been destroyed or damaged by fanatically devout Christians. More recently, the Buddha statues, regarded as the devil, were attacked and beheaded in the name of Jesus. Or:[Account Suspended](http://www.alcheringa-gallery.com/exhibit.html/v1/intro/v5/72/) Quote: The art of the Sentani captured the interest of Dutch missionaries, explorers and officials as early as 1893, and was influential on European modernists in the 1920’s through the collecting of French art dealer Jacques Viot. Unfortunately, at the same time the Protestant missionaries pressured the Sentani to destroy most of their magnificent men’s and clan chief (ondofolo) houses and the ceremonial objects they contained. Or Jared Diamond (In Collapse) mentioning meeting a missionary in Papua who boasted happily of the number of carvings he had personally burned. Shall I go on? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/108 "2011-03-19T01:00:29Z")
I think PZ did a good job of showing that 1)It’s still just a cracker 2)It has no magical powers 3)Consecration of a cracker is just words and not a ceremony. I think the complaining Catholics did an even better job of admitting in a roundabout way that they are 1) Superstitious 2) Easily led and 3) Could care less about any other religion than their own. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/109 "2011-03-19T01:54:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > t, along with copies of a Richard Dawkins book and Dawkins wrote the bible or something? I always thought he was an atheist biologist:confused: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When my oldest daughter as getting ready for First Communion, I had to take her to some kind of little class about it where they told parents and kids the details of what was going to happen, the theological significance, etc. One lady started talking about how Satanists sometimes would go to Mass and steal a host, then take it back to their lairs for desecration rituals. She talked about how they would curse it and spit on it in this tone like she was talking about the Holocaust. I was amused not just at how seriously she took this - like stomping on a cracker was the same as stomping a baby - but at the image of a bunch of sullen,“Satanist” losers actually doing that stuff and thinking they were really performing some kind of terribly transgressive act. It would just be such an impotent and silly thing to do. It shouldn’t bother Catholics at all. Actually you can buy little boxes of the eucharist at religious supply houses, all it takes is one of those mail order ordinations to buy one [or at least last time I went shopping with a friend, they needed to show an ordination of any sort to start an account.] Actually, much satanism is exactly that, essentially the theological version of a 5 year old having a tantrum. I don’t like you and I’m going to reverse all your ceremonies to show how much I hate you PPTTTBBBBBT! Many also hate that I tend to point out that if you believe in satan you believe in god too \ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/110 "2011-03-19T02:20:21Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Which is irreleeveant, because Catholcis don’t claim that it hurts Jesus. What we do claim is that it is sacred, holy essence handed down by God himself. > > This man is an asshole who meant insult Catholicism and many other Christians, too), entered a church fraudulently (he is invited to Mass, but taking the Host is a huge no-no and he was being deliberately deceptive), stole what does not actually belong to him as personal property, and then deliberately desecrated it. That may not be criminal, but it is ugly and depraved. At worst he frauded a single cracker man, a cracker which they willfully gave him. Chillax bro. If that’s a big religious issue your god is a neurotic. Maybe you just need to learn to deal with the fact different kinds of people share your world and respect for your beliefs must be earned, not given as long as society is free. Though your beliefs should be reasonably accommodated as a part of that free society. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/111 "2011-03-19T02:20:24Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Dawkins wrote the bible or something? I always thought he was an atheist biologist:confused: “Waall, we Christians got the Bible, them Mormans [sic]\ got their Book of Mormon, them Mooslims got their Koran, the Jee-yews got the Torah, everybody got a holy book. So for athiests [sic] it must be Dawkins.” (Pardon me while I go bleach my brain after writing that! ;)) > [@](#): > > Actually you can buy little boxes of the eucharist at religious supply houses, Actually, no you can’t. You can buy Hosts. Or you can make your own – they’re nothing but wheat flour and water, rolled out to the desired thinness, cut to shape, optionally stamped with the religious symbol of your choice, and baked. What they’re lacking is being ‘confected’ – consecrated by a validly ordained priest or bishop. And without that, they’re nothing but matzoh. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/112 "2011-03-19T03:51:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What does this actually mean? What exactly is “sacred holy essence,” and what injury is done to mankind by putting a nail in it? So something must somehow harm “mankind” Moving the goalposts, Dio, moving the goalposts. At least be honest in your argumentation. > [@](#): > > Do you have a cite that he acquired this host this way? The only other way it can be acquired is to break in and steal it. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/113 "2011-03-19T03:52:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > So you’re saying that the people who claim that they felt offended or insulted are lying? Because that seems to be the only alternative. Either they’re telling the truth and really are insulted by his actions, in which case, he insulted them, or they’re not actually bothered by it all and are just pretending? _Felt_ insulted or _were_ insulted? I think the point is that it’s foolish to believe that there is any magic associated with these wafers along with books and other objects, and so only a fool would take so extremely personally such acts of “desecration”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/114 "2011-03-19T04:16:52Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > So something must somehow harm “mankind” Moving the goalposts, Dio, moving the goalposts. At least be honest in your argumentation. What fucking goalposts? I just asked a question. Who or what is is harmed by somebody putting a nail through a cracker? You don’t have to limit it to “mankind” since that’s apparently too narrow for you. How is any harm done to anything in the universe? Also, what does the phrase “sacred holy essence” mean in empirical terms? How is that phrase not gibberish? > [@](#): > > The only other way it can be acquired is to break in and steal it. You can buy the wafers, actually. They won’t be “consecrated,” but what does that really mean anyway, but that some wizard in a dress waved his arms over it and blathered some magic words. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/115 "2011-03-19T04:40:36Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > _Felt_ insulted or _were_ insulted? I think the point is that it’s foolish to believe that there is any magic associated with these wafers along with books and other objects, and so only a fool would take so extremely personally such acts of “desecration”. If you feel insulted, you are insulted. Insult is an inherently subjective thing. And, I think when Mr. Myers did it, he did it knowing that he was going to insult a bunch of Catholics, and I think that’s a large part of the reason that he did do it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/116 "2011-03-19T05:29:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering the fact that the Serbs slaughtered Croatian Catholics and considered any Serb who converted to Catholicism to be a Croat, that’s a fairly ridiculous statement. Did they? What difference does it make - they slaughtered people for not being the “right” religion, and even among peoples whose religions are near indistinguishable can be violence and murder. > [@](#): > > You might as well call the government of Iran to be “Sunni Lite”. Well, I’ve never fully grasped the Shia/Sunni schism, to be honest. In any case, as with Yugoslavia and Nazi Germany, the religious issues are just the excuse for the grabbing of loot and land anyway, and Catholics (including autocephalous spin-offs) have no special immunity to such temptations. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/117 "2011-03-19T05:49:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Did they? What difference does it make - they slaughtered people for not being the “right” religion, and even among peoples whose religions are near indistinguishable can be violence and murder. You believe that the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are “near indistinguishable”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/118 "2011-03-19T05:55:50Z")
Theologically, yes. That’s true. There’s barely any difference except for the authority of the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/119 "2011-03-19T08:48:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You believe that the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are “near indistinguishable”? Heck, I think _most_ religions, if not _all_ religions, are near indistinguishable, with some varieties being more indistinguishable than others. Going from one to another is just trading in one set of arbitrary myths for another, and in some cases the number of myth-trades necessary are very few, as with Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox. In any case, this is a mere digression. The claim that a Catholic nation destroyed the icons of another faith doesn’t really apply to Nazi Germany. It _could_ apply to 1990s Serbia, or at least to a much higher degree of accuracy. In any case, it’s fine to consider someone a jerk if they’re trying to troll you, including trying get a rise out of you by defacing a symbol important to you. I admit, stabbing a cookie means nothing to me, while somebody stomping all over a Canadian flag would get a mildly negative reaction (not really anything more than “that guy’s a jerk”). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/120 "2011-03-19T09:33:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The claim that a Catholic nation destroyed the icons of another faith doesn’t really apply to Nazi Germany. It _could_ apply to 1990s Serbia, or at least to a much higher degree of accuracy. No it could not. Serbs, by definition were not Catholic. Serbia was no more a Catholic nation than either Israel or Iran. In fact, one could argue that calling Serbia a Catholic country makes even less sense than calling Iran or Israel Catholic countries because Israel and Saudi Arabia’s mortal enemies were not Catholics. Furthermore, the Serbian government spent a great deal of time and effort in the 1990s attempting to ethnically cleanse not only Muslims but Catholics from their territories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=7)