# "Desecration" of the Eucharist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144 "2011-03-18T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/121 "2011-03-19T13:35:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Serbia was no more a Catholic nation than either Israel or Iran. In fact, one could argue that calling Serbia a Catholic country makes even less sense than calling Iran or Israel Catholic countries because Israel and Saudi Arabia’s mortal enemies were not Catholics. Wow! Good thing I wasn’t comparing Serbia to Israel _or_ Iran, but wartime Germany! Thanks, mysterious stranger! You sure saved me from some embarrassment there! > [@](#): > > Furthermore, the Serbian government spent a great deal of time and effort in the 1990s attempting to ethnically cleanse not only Muslims but Catholics from their territories. So? Catholics can’t make war on other types of catholics? History says otherwise. Anyway, this is a pointless digression and I decline to take it further. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/122 "2011-03-19T15:09:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So? Catholics can’t make war on other types of catholics? History says otherwise. Sure, but the Serbians aren’t Catholics. Now, the Croatians are Catholics, and they did some nasty stuff during the Bosnian war too, so if you had used them as an example, you might have done better, but the Serbians, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/123 "2011-03-19T15:18:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Wow! Good thing I wasn’t comparing Serbia to Israel _or_ Iran, but wartime Germany! Thanks, mysterious stranger! You sure saved me from some embarrassment there! Yes, and you made a complete fool of yourself by saying that Serbia could be more readily classified as “a Catholic nation” than “wartime Germany.” In point of fact, none of the Serbs are Catholics, whereas a large percentage of Germans were and still are and the leader of Germany was himself a Catholic. The fact that you don’t seem to realize that the Serbs aren’t Catholic despite being told on multiple occasions is actually quite humorous. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/124 "2011-03-19T15:18:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No it could not. Serbs, by definition were not Catholic. > > Serbia was no more a Catholic nation than either Israel or Iran. In fact, one could argue that calling Serbia a Catholic country makes even less sense than calling Iran or Israel Catholic countries because Israel and Saudi Arabia’s mortal enemies were not Catholics. > > Furthermore, the Serbian government spent a great deal of time and effort in the 1990s attempting to ethnically cleanse not only Muslims but Catholics from their territories. Eastern Orthodox churches actually are Trinitarian Catholic. They are are also called Catholic Orthodox. They aren’t _Roman_ Catholic, but they are Catholic and they call themselves Catholic. Don’t run your mouth if you don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/125 "2011-03-19T16:29:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Eastern Orthodox churches actually are Trinitarian Catholic. They are are also called Catholic Orthodox. They aren’t _Roman_ Catholic, but they are Catholic and they call themselves Catholic. Don’t run your mouth if you don’t know what you’re talking about. They’re not Catholics. There are Eastern Rite Catholics out there, but the Serbian Orthodox aren’t. The Serbian Patriarch is Irenij (Irenaeus), Archbishop of Pec, Metropolitan of Belgrade (by all accounts a good leader and nice guy), and the church is autocephalous. They may call themselves Catholic, but so do the Episcopalians, and that doesn’t mean they have anything to do with the German guy in Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/126 "2011-03-19T16:29:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Eastern Orthodox churches actually are Trinitarian Catholic. They are are also called Catholic Orthodox. They aren’t _Roman_ Catholic, but they are Catholic and they call themselves Catholic. Don’t run your mouth if you don’t know what you’re talking about. The Serbs most certainly don’t consider themselves Catholics, their religious leaders regularly condemn Catholics and it’s pretty hilarious to be accused of “running my mouth” about things I don’t understand from someone who thought pre-WWII Germany was a “Catholic nation”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/127 "2011-03-19T16:39:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > They’re not Catholics. There are Eastern Rite Catholics out there, but the Serbian Orthodox aren’t. The Serbian Patriarch is Irenij (Irenaeus), Archbishop of Pec, Metropolitan of Belgrade (by all accounts a good leader and nice guy), and the church is autocephalous. > > They may call themselves Catholic, but so do the Episcopalians, and that doesn’t mean they have anything to do with the German guy in Rome. If they call themselves Catholic, they’re Catholic. The RCC has no ownership of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/128 "2011-03-19T16:41:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Serbs most certainly don’t consider themselves Catholics, their religious leaders regularly condemn Catholics and it’s pretty hilarious to be accused of “running my mouth” about things I don’t understand from someone who thought pre-WWII Germany was a “Catholic nation”. They are a Catholic Orthodox church. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You should be quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/129 "2011-03-19T16:58:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If they call themselves Catholic, they’re Catholic. The RCC has no ownership of the word. Please provide a link showing leaders of the Serbian Orthodox Church calling themselves “Catholic”. The wiki article on the Serbian Orthodox Church contains no reference to them calling themselves Catholic. Captain Amazing has already said you’ve confused them with other Eastern Rite Catholics and since you earlier classified pre-WWII Germany as being a “Catholic nation” it’s apparent you can make mistakes on how some Europeans classify themselves religiously. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/130 "2011-03-19T17:19:02Z")
[Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church): > [@](#): > > The Orthodox Church, also officially called the Orthodox **Catholic** Church [note 1] and commonly referred to as the Eastern Orthodox Church,[4] considers itself to be the One, Holy, **Catholic** and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and his Apostles almost 2,000 years ago. Orthodoxy is the second largest Christian communion in the world, with an estimated 300 million adherents. The Orthodox Church considers itself to be the real Catholic Church and the RCC to be splitters: > [@](#): > > Almost from the very beginning, Christians referred to the Church as the “One, Holy, **Catholic** [from the Greek καθολική, or universal] and Apostolic Church”.[8] Today, in addition to the Orthodox Church, a number of other Christian churches lay claim to this title (including the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Assyrian Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church); however, the Orthodox Church considers these other churches to be schismatic and, in some cases, heretical. In the Orthodox view, the Assyrians and Orientals left the Orthodox Church in the first few centuries after Christ, and the Roman Catholics became the largest group to do so, as the result of the East-West Schism, traditionally dated in 1054. Just in case you want to argue about whether Serbian Orthodox is part of the Catholic Orthodox family: > [@](#): > > Thus it is that many Orthodox Churches adopt a national title (e.g. Albanian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Georgian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, Romanian Orthodox, **Serbian** Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox etc.) and this title serves to distinguish which language, which bishops, and which of the typica is followed by that particular congregation. If you don’t know anything about Christian traditions, you shouldn’t pop off at the mouth about them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/131 "2011-03-19T17:21:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Captain Amazing has already said you’ve confused them with other Eastern Rite Catholics He’s incorrect about this. Just because it’s autocephalic doesn’t mean it’s not Catholic Orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/132 "2011-03-19T18:16:33Z")
I notice you failed to list any leaders of the Serbian Orthodox Church calling themselves Catholic. The wiki article on the Serbian Orthodox Church says nothing of the sort either. Finally, my roommate in college was from Bulgaria and their were several Eastern European students there from Eastern Orthodox countries and whenever they referred to “Catholics” it was obvious they weren’t referring to themselves. Finally, anyone who claimed, as you did, that pre-WWII Germany was a “Catholic nation” has no business lecturing others about their supposed ignorance regarding Christian denominations. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/133 "2011-03-19T18:52:01Z")
> [@lemac](#): > > [Well, there was the time that the Catholic Croats murdered 300,000+ Serbs and force-converted 200,000 to Catholicism…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_persecution_of_Serbs) But given the heroic way that the Catholic Church in Croatia [resisted](http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html) the Nazis during World War II, trying to blame them for the crimes committed by the Nazis would be a remarkably nasty and dishonest thing to do, wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/134 "2011-03-19T20:16:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I notice you failed to list any leaders of the Serbian Orthodox Church calling themselves Catholic. > > The wiki article on the Serbian Orthodox Church says nothing of the sort either. These are both phony criteria. You didn’t really know what the word “catholic” meant and you got busted on it. Just cop to it and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/135 "2011-03-19T20:20:34Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > But given the heroic way that the Catholic Church in Croatia [resisted](http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html) the Nazis during World War II, trying to blame them for the crimes committed by the Nazis would be a remarkably nasty and dishonest thing to do, wouldn’t you agree? How does that excuse them for persecuting Serbs? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/136 "2011-03-19T20:23:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What fucking goalposts? I just asked a question. Who or what is is harmed by somebody putting a nail through a cracker? You don’t have to limit it to “mankind” since that’s apparently too narrow for you. How is any harm done to anything in the universe? It doesn’t do the cracker a lot of good. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/137 "2011-03-19T20:53:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > These are both phony criteria. You didn’t really know what the word “catholic” meant and you got busted on it. Just cop to it and move on. You proclaimed, “If they say they are Catholic, they are Catholic.” Ok, please provide a link to a Serb Orthodox leader calling themselves Catholics. I ask because the Bulgarians and Serbs I knew in college most certainly did not consider themselves Catholics or call themselves Catholics. Also, since you apparently were under the impression that Germany was “a Catholic nation” I’m a bit amused by your lecturing us on exactly what constitutes a “Catholic”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/138 "2011-03-19T21:00:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You proclaimed, “If they say they are Catholic, they are Catholic.” > > Ok, please provide a link to a Serb Orthodox leader calling themselves Catholics. > > I ask because the Bulgarians and Serbs I knew in college most certainly did not consider themselves Catholics or call themselves Catholics. > > Also, since you apparently were under the impression that Germany was “a Catholic nation” I’m a bit amused by your lecturing us on exactly what constitutes a “Catholic”. You’re going in circles and setting phony criteria. I have already provided the cite that Eastern Orthodox churchs are “Catholic.” You didn’t know what you were talking about. Just cop to it and move on. Your last point is lame, by the wa,. I already admitted that I made a mistake of sloppy reading. Clinging to that like oxygen is not going to help you. You were wrong. You made an inaccurate statement. I do happen to know a _little_ bit about religion. It was my college major. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/139 "2011-03-19T21:21:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re going in circles and setting phony criteria. I have already provided the cite that Eastern Orthodox churchs are “Catholic.” You didn’t know what you were talking about. Just cop to it and move on. > > Your last point is lame, by the wa,. I already admitted that I made a mistake of sloppy reading. Clinging to that like oxygen is not going to help you. You were wrong. You made an inaccurate statement. I do happen to know a _little_ bit about religion. It was my college major. Sigh, you specifically claimed that Serbs call themselves Catholics and you have repeatedly refused to provide a single case of Serbs classifying themselves Catholics. Sorry, but calling the Serbs “Catholics” makes as much sense as calling Canadians and Guatamalans “Americans”. In fact I’m a bit amused by you’re being so absurdly pedantic about the word “Catholic” since I’ve seen you make reference to “Americans and Mexicans” and “Americans and Canadians”. Beyond that having a BA in religion hardly makes you infallible and since you’ve recently admitted you were unaware traditional Judaism believed in matrilineal descent and have insisted the Druze and Mandaeans don’t define themselves by their religious beliefs you clearly have gaps in your knowledge and understanding of the world’s religions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144/140 "2011-03-19T21:27:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sigh, you specifically claimed that Serbs call themselves Catholics and you have repeatedly refused to provide a single case of Serbs classifying themselves Catholics. I specifically claimed that Serbian Orthodox is a Catholic Orthodox Church. I made no comment about what they call themselves. You are taking a response I posted to **Captain Amazing** out of context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/desecration-of-the-eucharist/575144.md?page=8)