# Destiny and Empire: Aeneid Book I **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 3, 2001, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221 "2001-05-03T15:30:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/1 "2001-05-03T15:30:25Z")
It’s bloody, it’s violent and it involves wolves suckling babies. **Scylla’s** in it. It’s got jealous babes and one-eyed monsters. Vergil has been ripped off (er, honored) by Dante, Milton, Hemingway and Asimov (anybody else?). Did you know that for years people opened the _Aeneid_ randomly to get advice on what to do in tough situations? Yeah, this is the real thing. Please join us in reading the first book of the _Aeneid_. It’s 25 pages, it’s readily available in paperback in English and [there’s even an on-line version](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0052). More links: [**Maeglin’s** website with background materials](http://www.columbia.edu/~mir13/classics.html) [prior discussion thread on another part of the _Aeneid_](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=54467) [thread started by a bunch o’ masochists learning Latin](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=69386) I will bump this thread without shame and discussion will begin in a couple of weeks. There will not be a quiz; there may be public entertainment, togas, bare legs and sandals. No contribution will be ignored–I personally live for odd comments tangentially related to the text and comments on obvious themes from a fresh perspective. So, whaddaya say? Join us, please. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/2 "2001-05-03T18:03:01Z")
These are, like, the tears of the world, people! The sorrows that touch all mortals! So don’t afraid…come on in and join the fun. Though as far as toga parties go, I hear Roman beer really sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Peregrine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a6a055/32.png) [@Peregrine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peregrine)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/3 "2001-05-04T05:13:34Z")
This seems about my speed. Go ahead and sign me up. I’ve got a latin copy with _copious_ notes by Charles Knapp, as well as a verse translation by James Rhoades. I’m not prepared to commit to learning the latin, but I am sure I can get through one book in translation. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/4 "2001-05-04T14:08:23Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, **Peregrine**! Very glad to have you join us. Did the Romans really not do good beer? Wine of course would be the main thing, but they had grain (including all that infamous stuff imported from Egypt), and I recall that someone found a beer recipe on a near-East (Mesopotamian?) clay tablet a while back that they tried and made into passable beer. Rome was never shy about borrowing what it needed from other cultures. Or maybe **Maeglin** just meant modern Italian beer (of which I can’t think of a single brand imported to the US)? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/5 "2001-05-04T14:45:07Z")
Moretti. It’s got what appears to be a mafioso on the label, probably thinking something like “Drink this or I kill your family.” See, I can’t afford to see the world, so I simply sample beers from around the world. The poor man’s world tour… And, well, why not; sign me up. I’ll participate in this or die trying. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/6 "2001-05-04T19:59:27Z")
“Beer…an offer you can’t refuse.” Now there’s a marketing slogan. Thanks for joining in **LNO**. BTW, I was semi-serious in the other thread about getting fresh translations of the first line of Book I. Is it “arms and _a_ man,” or “arms and _the_ man”? Some versions use “hero” instead of man. Is _virumque_ really so full of meanings? Are “enclitic conjuctions” always happy? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/7 "2001-05-04T21:24:53Z")
Since I am actually already reading it, I might as well sign up. Unlike some guys, I have no problems with making commitments. My problem is with fulfilling them. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/8 "2001-05-04T21:25:34Z")
An offer you can’t refuse … or, after a few cases, an offer you can no longer understand. I’d probably choose “arms and _a_ man” over “_the_ man” for aesthetic reasons. I’d probably lean towards saying “a man of war”, too. Certain authors have used it to mean either ‘soldier’ (synonymous with _miles_) or 'foot-soldier (synonymous with _pedes_). Vir is a word that means man, human, husband, soldier, foot-soldier, man of honor/principle, or even manhood/virility. Pretty much anything else, too. Usually you’re safe translating it as simply ‘man’. And enclitic conjuctions are only happy when I say they are, goldarnit. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/9 "2001-05-05T03:06:51Z")
Excellent, **drop**. Knew we could count on you. So, I can properly sing of “arms and the manly, virile, foot soldier,” or “arms and the honorable husband”? (Not that you would want to hear me sing.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/10 "2001-05-05T03:43:27Z")
So, (slowly picking up on the obvious here) Shaw’s play “Arms and the Man” takes it’s title from the first line of the Aeneid? This helps. I have never understood why the title applies to that play, I always thought that “The Chocolate Cream Soldier” would be much better. So now, all I have to do is re-read it and figure out if there is some satire of the Aeneid hidden in there somewhere. Somehow, I have the feeling that this is all very obvious and everyone else has known about it for years. (Wanders off mumbling to herself.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/11 "2001-05-05T04:02:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Punkyova \* > **I have the feeling that this is all very obvious and everyone else has known about it for years.** If it make you feel any better, and as you get to know me better you will find it shouldn’t, I have that conversation at least once a week as the interconnections of the universe, real and imagined, slowly make themselves known to me. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/12 "2001-05-05T04:04:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\*Unlike some guys, I have no problems with making commitments. My problem is with fulfilling them. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Humble Servant \* > **Knew we could count on you.** I believe my point was that no, you can’t. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/13 "2001-05-06T02:40:39Z")
Fulfillment is inherent in true commitment, grasshopper.😉 The interconnectedness of all things takes my breath away, **Punkyova**. I love that feeling of recognition when I finally “get” a reference to a book I’ve previously read; I’m even happy to know that there are all those references out there that I don’t get; if the story of the world was small enough to be contained within my limited sampling of books and authors, it wouldn’t be so alluring, untamed or unknown. I like alluring, untamed and unknown. I am willing to read the _Aeneid_ because I am sure I will find a new cross-reference. Read along with us–you might be the person who points out the passage that does it for me. ---
**Author:** ![Internaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/977dab/32.png) [@Internaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Internaut)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2001, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/14 "2001-05-06T07:33:52Z")
Well, I tried my own hand at translating the first few lines of the Aeneid, just in case anyone’s still interested in this thread’s project. Note the influence of Dryden, of course. My fateful theme concerns a man of war And what the vengeful Juno had in store To try our hero, wandering after Troy On sea and land before he could enjoy The spoils of arduous battle, make his home In Italy, and found high-towered Rome. But this he did, and gave his gods a shrine On Latin soil; so Alban’s race divine Grew strong. But long before he’d beach At that Lavinian shore he strove to reach, There’s much, O Muse, that we two have to tell Of crimes and calumnies, and how it fell That such a man was hounded on his ways: So heaven’s wrath some mortal faults betrays. ---
**Author:** ![Internaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/977dab/32.png) [@Internaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Internaut)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2001, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/15 "2001-05-06T07:41:07Z")
Ummm… that line should be: … Grew strong. But long before he came to beach … (Mixed up a couple of versions.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/16 "2001-05-06T18:58:15Z")
Thanks, HS, I feel better. So, what’s the procedure? Is there a moderator, do we have a set date to read the first 100 lines? Or do we just read the whole book whenever and post what we think? ---
**Author:** ![Internaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/977dab/32.png) [@Internaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Internaut)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/17 "2001-05-07T00:15:29Z")
LNO, you say: Vir is a word that means man, human, husband, soldier, foot-soldier, man of honor/principle, or even manhood/virility. … But when you include manhood/virility here, are you not mixing up vir (short ‘i’; plural is viri) and vis (long ‘i’; plural is vires)? Of course, virilitas comes from vir, but vir doesn’t mean virilitas, does it? I have, in the meantime, amended my rendering of Book 1, 1-11, by the way: My fateful theme concerns a man of war, And what the vengeful Juno had in store To try our hero, wandering after Troy On sea and land before he could enjoy The spoils of arduous battle, make his home In Italy, and found high-towered Rome. All this he did, and gave his gods a shrine On Latin soil; the sacred Alban line Grew strong. But long before he came to beach At that Lavinian shore he strove to reach, There’s much, O Muse, that we two have to tell Of crimes and calumnies, and how it fell That such a man was hounded on his ways: How heaven’s wrath such mortal faults betrays! (Not that I’m an advocate of rhymed translations of unrhymed originals, but it’s an engaging sort of a challenge.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/18 "2001-05-07T02:49:58Z")
To show what disadvantages I have reading this without footnotes or a grounding in history and mythology beyond what I learned from _Hercules_ and _Xena_:\*\* Me: He’s describing Carthage as “Tyrian.” Tyre was in Phoenecia, wasn’t it? Was Carthage founded by Phoenecians? Wife: Yes. Me: Um, Aeneas says that these guys made it past Scylla and survived the Cyclops’ lair. These guys are supposed to be Trojan. Is he mixing up myths? Wife: Yes. Me: Neptune wasn’t one of the Titans, was he? So how come’s he’s so big? Wife: He’s a god. Me: Jove is his own brother, and he’s regular size. Wife: That’s 'cuz he lives on a mountain. Long pause. Me: You realize that was totally nonsensical, don’t you? Wife: Why would you say that? **Question for you folks:** Was there a beief that Rome had been founded by displaced Trojans before this book or did Virgil make it up himself to cash in on the _Iliad/Odyssey_ craze? - - Actually, I always enjoyed how Hercules’ sidekick was Aeolus and Xena’s was Gabrielle because of the Gabby Hayes tribute. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/19 "2001-05-07T03:00:30Z")
**Punky** : procedure is that about May 15th I will start the discussion off with a question. The question will relate to something in Book I, and you may either respond to the question or respond with whatever you like about Book I (or indeed about Vergil or the _Aeneid_ as a whole or anything else so long as you can tangentially relate it to Book I). Book I is short enough to be read as a whole by everyone before the discussion starts. **Internaut** : I like it! I don’t have much Latin, and while you may be open to criticism from literalists, I think you give the gist in modern sense quite well. I especially like, “gave his gods a shrine on Latin soil.” Two questions: 1. What do you mean by your use of the “we two” in the fourth to last line–that poet and muse are collaborators (an interesting variation on the inspiration theme)?; and 2. What are you saying in the last line, “How heaven’s wrath such mortal faults betrays”? It does indeed “sing,” but what does it mean for wrath to betray a fault?? ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221/20 "2001-05-07T03:29:06Z")
Simulpost **drop** –I knew you’d be here to do the fulfillment thing. 😃 For what it’s worth, the notes to my edition say that Vergil made most of it up–before him, there was not a tradition of a Trojan founding. I think the “suckled by a wolf thing” sounds more Roman–Vergil incorporated every “establishment” myth he could find–Book I is a hodgepodge of events; kinda like Genesis. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destiny-and-empire-aeneid-book-i/64221.md?page=2)