# Destroying a Sudanese pharmaceutical plant -- priceless **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484 "2010-06-09T00:57:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/21 "2010-06-09T15:22:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I don’t think the US paid any compensation for bombing the Yugo factory in Serbia during the 1999 Kosovo campaign. Maybe because it wasn’t worth anything and it deserved bombing anyway? An interesting example to be sure, but even more interesting is whether or not we paid any compensation for bombing the Chinese embassy. IIRC, there were deaths involved. Anybody know? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/22 "2010-06-09T15:23:53Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > So if the Sudanese Government had intelligence that the US Government was planning to bomb a local aspirin factory, it could legally fly a plane into the Capitol? > [@Giles](#): > > Yes, it would be a perfectly legal act of war. If the pilot and crew were captured while making the attempt, or after parachuting out of the plane before impact, they could not be tried as criminals. They could, however, be held as prisoners of war for the duration of hostilities between the Sudan and the U.S. Correct. Assuming the Sudanese followed their own laws, that would be a legal act of war. See – war isn’t illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/23 "2010-06-09T15:25:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > An interesting example to be sure, but even more interesting is whether or not we paid any compensation for bombing the Chinese embassy. IIRC, there were deaths involved. > > Anybody know? If we did, it wasn’t because the Chinese sued us. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/24 "2010-06-09T15:26:04Z")
John: [Yes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_bombing_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China_embassy_in_Belgrade) > [@](#): > > In October 1999, the two sides reached agreement on humanitarian payments for families of those who died and those who were injured as well as payments for damages to respective diplomatic properties in Belgrade and China. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/25 "2010-06-09T16:13:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > John: [Yes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_bombing_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China_embassy_in_Belgrade) Thanks. Looks there was a settlement outside the legal system of either country, which makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/26 "2010-06-09T16:29:35Z")
If the President has the power to negate the citizenship rights of an American person, what stops him from negating the rights of an American corporation? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/27 "2010-06-09T17:47:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > So what does that leave? Violence? This is an argument for lawlessness. No, it’s a recognition that there’s a difference between international conduct under the rubric of war, and normal internal interactions between government and people. [/QUOTE] Um, war IS violent. So the answer to my question “Yes, the answer is to use violence”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/28 "2010-06-09T19:21:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Um, war IS violent. So the answer to my question “Yes, the answer is to use violence”. War is controlled violence, intended to effect the political aims of the warring party. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/29 "2010-06-09T19:28:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > War is controlled violence, intended to effect the political aims of the warring party. Even if that was true (and it isn’t, war is hardly limited to that), so what? It basically boils down to an inadvertent assertion that if the company wanted redress it should have said “screw the courts; send assassins.” ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/30 "2010-06-09T19:47:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Even if that was true (and it isn’t, war is hardly limited to that), so what? It basically boils down to an inadvertent assertion that if the company wanted redress it should have said “screw the courts; send assassins.” Yes, I think that’s the big problem. The U.S., along with other democratic states, should be aiming for a world in which disputes are resolved peacefully. Using war to further your own aims, and not offering compensation to innocent victims of your war actions, sends a message to the rest of the world – and it’s not a message that the U.S. likes to have sent back to it when Americans suffer. As St Paul said, “whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/31 "2010-06-09T20:12:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But in this case the decision is that it doesn’t matter if the company was in the right or not; the decision is that the company has no legal recourse. Again, that’s pretty common in countries ruled by laws. Lots of bad things happen for which you can’t find solace in the court system. Now, if you were to say that the U.S. government, no matter what the court says, should apologize and pay these people back, I’d agree. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/32 "2010-06-09T20:26:12Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Is there a difference? Suppose that a Canadian militia, intent on destroying the U.S., had crossed the Detroit River, taken over the car factory, and were using it to produce armoured cars in pursuit of their war aims. If the US military destroyed the factory, would compensation be due? And if compensation is due, why isn’t it owed to the innocent owners of a factory outside the U.S.? They’re Africans, duh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/33 "2010-06-09T20:30:06Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes, I think that’s the big problem. The U.S., along with other democratic states, should be aiming for a world in which disputes are resolved peacefully. Using war to further your own aims, and not offering compensation to innocent victims of your war actions, sends a message to the rest of the world – and it’s not a message that the U.S. likes to have sent back to it when Americans suffer. As St Paul said, “whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.” OK, so the Sudanese can blow up a bunch of our darkies. They’re all drug dealers anyway. Sounds fair to me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/34 "2010-06-09T21:51:04Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes, I think that’s the big problem. The U.S., along with other democratic states, should be aiming for a world in which disputes are resolved peacefully. Using war to further your own aims, and not offering compensation to innocent victims of your war actions, sends a message to the rest of the world – and it’s not a message that the U.S. likes to have sent back to it when Americans suffer. As St Paul said, “whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.” Couple of pretty gigantic assumptions in that post. How do you confidently declare that the factory and its owners were “innocent?” There was reliable intelligence information that they were not, and the then-president relied upon it in making his decision to attack. Where did “innocent” come from? If they WERE innocent, I suspect the US would have paid compensation. This decision doesn’t prevent the US from offering compensation; it says the courts aren’t the route to get it… the political process is. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/35 "2010-06-09T21:56:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If they WERE innocent, I suspect the US would have paid compensation. And I think there’s a gigantic assumption in this post. ---
**Author:** ![NotreDame05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90ced4/32.png) [@NotreDame05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotreDame05)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/36 "2010-06-10T14:14:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Does it? Is there no difference between actions taken on US soil and actions taken on foreign soil? Perhaps I have misunderstood the decision, and the remarks made by Bricker, but does the location of the attack have relevance to whether it is a political question and therefore, the court must/should defer to the decision made by one of the other two co-equal branches of government? In other words, is it less of a political question had this attack taken place on U.S. soil, or does no political question exist at all had the attack taken place on U.S. soil? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/37 "2010-06-10T19:18:14Z")
The strong do what they will the weak what they must. No one cares much if at all for Sudanese factory owners and Sudanese in general and there is little they can do about it, unlike China who can cause a lot of discomfort. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/38 "2010-06-10T20:50:16Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > And I think there’s a gigantic assumption in this post. My assumption is that they were not innocent, and while it is an assumption, it’s based on the intelligence information and the then-president’s decision, which is owed great deference. Your contrary assumption is based on… what? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/39 "2010-06-10T21:02:42Z")
> [@NotreDame05](#): > > Perhaps I have misunderstood the decision, and the remarks made by Bricker, but does the location of the attack have relevance to whether it is a political question and therefore, the court must/should defer to the decision made by one of the other two co-equal branches of government? > > In other words, is it less of a political question had this attack taken place on U.S. soil, or does no political question exist at all had the attack taken place on U.S. soil? Yes, the courts have no jurisdiction outside the US, so the government has no judicial means to address the problem if it is not on US soil. If it is on US soil, the government will use the courts rather than bombs. Now, if we’re talking about a US ally with a functioning government, we certainly would normally go through their court system rather than just bombing an ally. A case in point is what we’re doing in Pakistan with the drones. Pakistan is an ally, but they have little or no government control over the tribal regions, and so we have no recourse in Pakistani courts. If there were a known terrorist cell in Karachi, we would expect the Pakistani government (with our help if needed), to take care of the situation, not our predator drones. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484/40 "2010-06-10T21:06:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The strong do what they will the weak what they must. Another argument for violence. That sort of line is favored by people who never expect to deal with the backlash, or to have the sharp end of it applied to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/destroying-a-sudanese-pharmaceutical-plant-priceless/542484.md?page=3)