# Detente Invitation to Pro-Trump and Anti-Trump camps. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171 "2017-03-14T16:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/101 "2017-03-16T05:25:54Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > So I am supposed to find ground with the “fuck you” candidate, and his fuck you voters, who will only answer in response to any question fuck you because fuck you, unless they want something from you in which case they lie and say fuck you when asked to explain the lie? no. if thats how you feel, then this is not the thread for you. and its not the thread for any “fuck you” people on either side. that still leaves alot of people who can actually have a civil discussion about things they may disagree about; as the op has stated many times already. and as others have taken the time to civilly discuss several topics. mc ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/102 "2017-03-16T05:30:24Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > no. if thats how you feel, then this is not the thread for you. and its not the thread for any “fuck you” people on either side. that still leaves alot of people who can actually have a civil discussion about things they may disagree about; as the op has stated many times already. and as others have taken the time to civilly discuss several topics. > > mc Seriously…have you read any of the responses of Trump supporters here? It’s like Conway is puppeteering their mouths. They basically spout anathema to anything resembling liberty (except, of course, for themselves). There’s no compromise with that lot. There are a very few exceptions, addy being one that comes immediately to mind…but then he was never fully on board with Trump, either. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/103 "2017-03-16T05:32:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I tend to disagree. I don’t think the Trumpster is evil so much as self-centered, vastly ignorant, subconsciously racist, and extremely gullible. He’s the personification of his base. > > Bannon, on the other hand, is Iago to a T. so you honestly believe that almost half of america are these things? that half of your neighbors, half of your coworkers, half of your friends, half of your family, half of all the people you encounter everyday are “self-centered, vastly ignorant, subconsciously racist, and extremely gullible?” wow, that must be horrible for you! mc ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/104 "2017-03-16T05:35:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Seriously…have you read any of the responses of Trump supporters here? It’s like Conway is puppeteering their mouths. They basically spout anathema to anything resembling liberty (except, of course, for themselves). There’s no compromise with that lot. > > There are a very few exceptions, addy being one that comes immediately to mind…but then he was never fully on board with Trump, either. yes i have read these responses; and the ones from hillary and obama supporters, too. thats why i whole heartedly support the op’s attempt to steer clear of all that! mc ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/105 "2017-03-16T05:43:33Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > so you honestly believe that almost half of america are these things? that half of your neighbors, half of your coworkers, half of your friends, half of your family, half of all the people you encounter everyday are “self-centered, vastly ignorant, subconsciously racist, and extremely gullible?” > > wow, that must be horrible for you! > > mc Well, let’s not overstate it. Really, only one American in five voted for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/106 "2017-03-16T05:45:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s not obvious to me. Supporting Trump requires a fundamentally different mindset. It requires a morality where most bad guys in movies are actually good guys, since Trump is a stereotypical movie villain. > > Or it requires a fundamentally different view of what is factual, essentially not believing any of the evil things Trump did, and believing every evil thing they said Clinton did. This is a rather myopic surface level view of what would motivate a person to support Trump. Here’s an example that contradicts the requirements you laid out: > [@sleestak](#): > > An example. You don’t like Clintons policies but believe she will be effective in implementing them. You don’t like Trumps policies either, but believe that he will be ineffective in implementing them. Who do you vote for? > > It is entirely rational to vote for Trump in this situation. In fact, most of the Trump voters I know followed reasoning similar to this. It wasn’t ‘Yay Trump!’ but rather ‘Lesser of two evils!’. (Note, I voted third party) This is even more rational if you believed, as the media was pushing quite hard, that Clinton and the Ds were going to win in a giant landslide of epic proportions. I think if you actually want to seek common ground, you have to be open to the idea that your assumptions of what motivates the opposition may be in error. > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Seriously…have you read any of the responses of Trump supporters here? It’s like Conway is puppeteering their mouths. They basically spout anathema to anything resembling liberty (except, of course, for themselves). There’s no compromise with that lot. I have. Some of it I disagree with, some I don’t. I try not to judge positions based on the extremist supporters or detractors. You yourself said that you think Trump being elected is worse that the Japanese internment. I myself think that putting over 100K citizens in concentration camps and depriving them of all of their worldly belongings and their liberty to be worse than Trump being elected, but I’m sure we could reach common ground on other issues. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/107 "2017-03-16T05:46:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, let’s not overstate it. Really, only one American in five voted for Trump. and by that logic only one in five voted against him, too. mc ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/108 "2017-03-16T05:48:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think if you actually want to seek common ground, you have to be open to the idea that your assumptions of what motivates the opposition may be in error. well said, thank you! mc ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/109 "2017-03-16T05:52:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, let’s not overstate it. Really, only one American in five voted for Trump. 63 million Americans voted for Trump, when you factor in the number of adults who are eligible to vote in America, i.e. the adults who aren’t serving prison sentences or felons, you get 231,000,000 Americans. Do the math, that’s 27% of eligible voters in America who chose Trump out of 231,000,000, in other words a little over one in four adult Americans voted for Trump. I don’t think we should really factor those who are under 18 into this, as they can’t vote. Sorry, but to Johnny Ace, the Republican base that voted overwhelmingly for Trump is neither racist nor gullible nor ignorant. You can assume they are, doesn’t make it factual. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/110 "2017-03-16T05:59:13Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > 63 million Americans voted for Trump, when you factor in the number of adults who are eligible to vote in America, i.e. the adults who aren’t serving prison sentences or felons, you get 231,000,000 Americans. Do the math, that’s 27% of eligible voters in America who chose Trump out of 231,000,000, in other words a little over one in four adult Americans voted for Trump. I don’t think we should really factor those who are under 18 into this, as they can’t vote. > > Sorry, but to Johnny Ace, the Republican base that voted overwhelmingly for Trump is neither racist nor gullible nor ignorant. You can assume they are, doesn’t make it factual. Not necessarily all things in all Trump voters…but at least one thing in every one of them. You can try to portray it as extremely as you want, but there is no rationalizing putting this horror of a human being into the most powerful office in the world. Every single person who voted for him owns that. Ignorance, selfishness, hypocrisy, racism, gullibility…oh, and I forgot the anarchists who just want to see things shaken up. Take your choice. And many cross boundaries to take multiple options. And, btw, I have no trouble at all believing that a fifth of the population is that gullible and can talk themselves into just about anything. P.T. Barnum was absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/111 "2017-03-16T06:02:59Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > and by that logic only one in five voted against him, too. Well, slightly more, truth be told, if every vote for someone other than Trump is counted as one against him. All the voters together make up less than half the total American population, in any case. I personally find it a little hard to see what merits Trump has that lead anyone to see he’d be a good president, but as a “screw it, roll the dice, burn the system, see what happens” candidate aided by a significant chunk of the American population who would vote for the Republican candidate no matter who he was, he made it. I’d suggest ignoring literally everything he says or tweets or has said or has tweeted. All that matters is what he actually does. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/112 "2017-03-16T06:09:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I have. Some of it I disagree with, some I don’t. I try not to judge positions based on the extremist supporters or detractors. You yourself said that you think Trump being elected is worse that the Japanese internment. I myself think that putting over 100K citizens in concentration camps and depriving them of all of their worldly belongings and their liberty to be worse than Trump being elected, but I’m sure we could reach common ground on other issues. Degrees. How about trying to short 20-some-odd-million their health insurance? Or deny any possibility of entry to thousands of immigrants based on their religion (and spare me the bullshit about how it’s not a Muslim ban, you and I both know it is, it was even a talking point during his campaign)? How about freeing business of regulations designed to protect the environment in the name of the almighty dollar? And this is in less than two months. He has 23 times that to fuck things up even more. 100K sounds like chickenfeed to me. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/113 "2017-03-16T06:15:45Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > no. if thats how you feel, then this is not the thread for you. and its not the thread for any “fuck you” people on either side. that still leaves alot of people who can actually have a civil discussion about things they may disagree about; as the op has stated many times already. and as others have taken the time to civilly discuss several topics. > > mc I wasn’t talking about the normal equivalency fuck yous. Also I wasn’t talking about anyone who doesn’t respond to these threads. So if you can find someone who isn’t saying that I’ll check it out. But the whole donnie enterprise is so ridden with fuck yous that if you can’t detect it I’m thinking that you haven’t been watching or reading. Or something. I think that everyone has had it up to their ears with the attempt to figure out a reason why a person could vote for don the con in good conscience that is comprehensible. We all have been chewing on this for half a year. The results: Fuck You. I’d even pay money to see you have a dialogue with yourself as two characters if you’re so sure it can be done… Who are you going to start with, and who are you going to give the last word? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/114 "2017-03-16T06:22:38Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Degrees. How about trying to short 20-some-odd-million their health insurance? Or deny any possibility of entry to thousands of immigrants based on their religion (and spare me the bullshit about how it’s not a Muslim ban, you and I both know it is, it was even a talking point during his campaign)? How about freeing business of regulations designed to protect the environment in the name of the almighty dollar? > > And this is in less than two months. He has 23 times that to fuck things up even more. > > 100K sounds like chickenfeed to me. Maybe we can’t find common ground after all. In my mind, all of that pales to literal concentration camps for American citizens in this country. Denying entry based on religion is certainly bad - have you heard of the Chinese Exclusion Act? Not very subtle that one. And the travel bans have been blocked so the real impact is not that great, relatively speaking. Changes to the ACA are mere proposals thus far. To me it’s a matter of perspective, and if you’re sticking to the idea that the election of Trump is worse than everything else since the Civil War including concentration camps, well I don’t share your perspective, not even close. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/115 "2017-03-16T06:24:46Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I wasn’t talking about the normal equivalency fuck yous. Also I wasn’t talking about anyone who doesn’t respond to these threads. So if you can find someone who isn’t saying that I’ll check it out. But the whole donnie enterprise is so ridden with fuck yous that if you can’t detect it I’m thinking that you haven’t been watching or reading. Or something. Start with response to scenario “a” in post #96 by **sleestak**. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/116 "2017-03-16T06:26:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Maybe we can’t find common ground after all. In my mind, all of that pales to literal concentration camps for American citizens in this country. Denying entry based on religion is certainly bad - have you heard of the Chinese Exclusion Act? Not very subtle that one. And the travel bans have been blocked so the real impact is not that great, relatively speaking. To me it’s a matter of perspective, and if you’re sticking to the idea that the election of Trump is worse than everything else since the Civil War, well I don’t share your perspective, not even close. So…what is the rationalization here? That what Trump has done is OK because there have been other bad things that other presidents have done? Is that really what you’re trying to say? Two months. We’ve only just had the starter’s gun. And do you seriously think that a Hillary presidency could possibly have been worse than this dog-and-pony show? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/117 "2017-03-16T06:27:34Z")
> **[Bannon Says Cabinet Picks Intended to ‘Deconstruct’ Regulation and Agencies](https://fortune.com/2017/02/25/bannon-trump-cabinet-cpac/)** > > The practice is nothing new, but Bannon's language is. > **[Trump Calls the News Media the ‘Enemy of the American People’ (Published 2017)](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/17/business/trump-calls-the-news-media-the-enemy-of-the-people.html?_r=0)** > > Even from a president who routinely castigates journalists, the president’s Twitter post was a striking escalation in his attacks on the press. People need the news to figure out WTF is going on today. They need the government because we are all invested in it deeply as a society, especially minorities who might not be alive or living in freedom without it. This is why people might think they are being told fuck you by this administration. If you are for this you are saying fuck you. How do you get around that in terms of a dialogue? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/118 "2017-03-16T06:31:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So…what is the rationalization here? That what Trump has done is OK because there have been other bad things that other presidents have done? Is that really what you’re trying to say? > > Two months. We’ve only just had the starter’s gun. No, that’s not even close to what I’m trying to say. I’m saying that your assessment seems pretty whacky. I’m trying to flesh it out to determine if it’s hyperbole or you actually believe that Trump being elected is worse than concentration camps for US citizens. I do this in an attempt to be consistent with the theme of the thread - this isn’t about Trump per se, it’s about what his supporters and detractors believe, and trying to seek common ground or at least gain understanding. So, as someone who’s probably opposed to much of the policy positions you’d take, I’m trying to communicate how your assessment comes across. Trump is just a prop in this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/119 "2017-03-16T06:55:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No, that’s not even close to what I’m trying to say. I’m saying that your assessment seems pretty whacky. I’m trying to flesh it out to determine if it’s hyperbole or you actually believe that Trump being elected is worse than concentration camps for US citizens. > > I do this in an attempt to be consistent with the theme of the thread - this isn’t about Trump per se, it’s about what his supporters and detractors believe, and trying to seek common ground or at least gain understanding. So, as someone who’s probably opposed to much of the policy positions you’d take, I’m trying to communicate how your assessment comes across. Trump is just a prop in this conversation. Trump isn’t just a prop. How can he _not_ be integral to the conversation? I refer you to the slogan above and his attacks on the truth and the media in general, simply because he doesn’t like what they report. Now he has the power to screw the country like never before, to destroy the principles it was founded on, and people _here_ actually buy into this crap, literally using the same verbiage he does. It’s not wacky. It’s dangerous to the founding principles that I actually bought into when I was a kid. And I’m not going to just sit around and say, well, you have a valid viewpoint, when it’s flat bullshit. I’m sure as hell not going to feed into the mentality that unfounded propaganda is OK as long as you get something out of it. And how does it get used? To push those policies that I have trouble believing that the people it will be screwed by can manage to talk themselves into. Health care that screws over most everyone but the wealthy, who don’t need help paying for it anyway, or a certain segment of the population that happen to be Republican-leaning, while forcing everyone else to pay for it? Oh, btw, we’re also going to screw Medicare and Planned Parenthood and I’m sure other programs while we’re at it. Why? For a tax cut for the rich. Give me a break. I see it for what it is, not what I want it to be. Believe me, this ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171/120 "2017-03-16T07:06:33Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > . . . . How do you get around that in terms of a dialogue? by being polite, thats how. my grandmother is a racist ole coot (well, not actually racist; she doesnt think whites are better than everyone else, just that all the different races shouldnt mix, but, yeah, racist) so when she comes over do you think its ok, everytime she opens her mouth for me to say “fuck you, nana, you racist old hag! its your fault this family is in the shape it in! you got nothin good to say so quit yer yappin!” no, thats not ok. she’s my nana and deserves the respect and common courtesy i’d give anyone. i let her talk then i calmly try to explain why i think she’s wrong - there’s no way either one of us is going to change the others mind, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt listen to each other and be nice. i think that the members of this board (a board that prides itself on knowledge above all else) deserve the respect of having their thoughts and ideas heard and engaging in civil discourse on the merits these. maybe i’m naive, but its the way my nana brought me up! mc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detente-invitation-to-pro-trump-and-anti-trump-camps/782171.md?page=7)