# Determining the value of an hour of labor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492 "2013-02-06T15:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/21 "2013-02-06T16:46:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Resolved: the need of a worker is not relevant when calculating the wage to be paid to that worker. > > . I’m not sure I agree. We have an employee that\* needed \*a new vehicle last year. She really did. We gave her a $10,000 bonus to help with that. She might have received a similar bonus anyway, as she was going above and beyond her duties to help us out. But when we heard of her need, that prompted us to write a check. There is no way to objectively calculate the wage that should be paid to a worker. The ones we want to keep and want to be happy, we pay more. If someone is expendable, we pay them a fair wage, but not overly generous. If someone doesn’t need employer based health insurance (costing us over $10,000 per year per employee) because their spouse has family benefits, we might pay them an extra $3,000 or so annually. We don’t precisely do what **Bricker** is advocating against. Some of our single workers certainly make more than others with a family to support. We do, however, consider the employee’s needs when setting salary, including such factors as length of commute, family obligations, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/22 "2013-02-06T16:59:27Z")
Does the OP work for whatever wage is offered by the person doing the hiring without regard for the amount of money he himself would like to make? Because I’m willing to give him a generous 1$ to clean out my garage. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/23 "2013-02-06T17:02:57Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Does the OP work for whatever wage is offered by the person doing the hiring without regard for the amount of money he himself would like to make? Because I’m willing to give him a generous 1$ to clean out my garage. The OP is a lawyer, so he probably knows little about how most people get paid. ETA: That’s just a dig at lawyers, for all I know he deals with the legality of wage issues all the time and may be well informed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/24 "2013-02-06T17:07:38Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, it’s fine for any company to offer any wage, so long as the workers are free to accept it or decline it (that is, not slavery). > > ETA: In accordance with all prevailing laws, of course, such as a minimum wage. Seems to me Bricker is arguing against any Minimum Wage or Living Wage laws. Bring on the child labor, they’re really cheap and their little hands are so good for fine work. I generally agree with Bricker’s analysis on a Micro level. When a company is determining a wage scale, the need of the worker only matters with respect to attracting and retaining workers of appropriate skill. On a Macro level, when you are setting up an economic system, the needs of your workforce must be front and center, they are your population, the people you are supposed to be representing. Companies, while important, are not your citizenry, their needs are important only in regards to the effect on the economy as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/25 "2013-02-06T17:20:28Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Seems to me Bricker is arguing against any Minimum Wage or Living Wage laws. Oh, is he? If so, it was subtle enough to pass my notice. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Bring on the child labor, they’re really cheap and their little hands are so good for fine work. But they aren’t free to negotiate a wage, not being legal adults and needing guardians and all. Support for child labor doesn’t flow from opposition to minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/26 "2013-02-06T17:24:07Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Seems to me Bricker is arguing against any Minimum Wage or Living Wage laws. Minimum wage laws in the US don’t take account of a persons individual needs. Its just a floor on what _everyone_ gets paid. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/27 "2013-02-06T17:27:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > However, that’s a somewhat different thing from what Bricker is saying. You’re arguing slightly at cross purposes. > > What Bricker is saying is that assesisng the value of Jim’s labor should not, from the employer’s perspective, involve Jim’s personal need for money. I don’t think they are really arguing two different things. The fact is that one’s needs/desires/circumstances will greatly factor into how much they will work for, thus making it a necessary consideration for some employers. This works both to an employer’s benefit and detriment. More importantly, wages are not solely based on the value of one’s labor, but rather a host of financial and other considerations. Either way, I predict this is another veiled hypothetical Bricker uses in order to trick people into agreeing with to some conservative ideal without fully thinking it through. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/28 "2013-02-06T17:30:33Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Minimum wage laws in the US don’t take account of a persons individual needs. Its just a floor on what _everyone_ gets paid. Well it is based on the idea that everybody needs to earn at least that amount. It’s not enough for anyone to live on, and isn’t personalized, which is I guess your point. But this isn’t an effective way to discuss minimum or living wages. I don’t know of anyone suggesting those would be based on individual need. I don’t get any real feel for what he’s arguing about at all. > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s unwise policy to plan to pay Jim more than Lee just because Jim is supporting a family and Lee is single. > > And it’s likewise foolish policy to plan to pay Greg more than I otherwise would be based on some third party’s determination of Greg’s need. It’s not unwise if it’s best for the business, and who uses a third party determination of a person’s needs to determine pay rates? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/29 "2013-02-06T17:44:12Z")
I work in a fairly niche field, and as a result several times in my life I’ve done national job searches where I basically send out resumes to every place in the country that’s looking for a person in that field, do a few interviews and get sent a bunch of offers. Since the jobs are very similar and the firms are all competing against each other for the same pool of applicants, the offers tend to be very similar _with the exception_ that places with a high-cost of living pay more. The reason is obvious, if jobs in Manhattan paid the same as jobs in Tampa, no one could afford to take a job in Manhattan without sleeping in a gutter. If they didn’t take in the higher need for money of employees living in Manhatten vs those living elsewhere, they would have no employees. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/30 "2013-02-06T17:45:57Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Seems to me Bricker is arguing against any Minimum Wage or Living Wage laws. Or, even subtler than that. Right now I’m in the second week of my three weeks of paternity leave, granted me by the FMLA. I can take this leave because I have a newborn daughter. My brother, who has no such daughter, can’t take a similar leave. Our society has decided that, if you need some time off as part of your compensation package in order to deal with a new kid, your employer must offer it to you; if you don’t, your employer needn’t offer it to you. Bricker’s OP seems to be in opposition to such laws. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/31 "2013-02-06T17:49:24Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Well it is based on the idea that everybody needs to earn at least that amount. It’s not enough for anyone to live on, and isn’t personalized, which is I guess your point. But this isn’t an effective way to discuss minimum or living wages. I don’t know of anyone suggesting those would be based on individual need. I don’t get any real feel for what he’s arguing about at all. > > It’s not unwise if it’s best for the business, and who uses a third party determination of a person’s needs to determine pay rates? The government. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/32 "2013-02-06T17:49:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Or, even subtler than that. Right now I’m in the second week of my three weeks of paternity leave, granted me by the FMLA. I can take this leave because I have a newborn daughter. My brother, who has no such daughter, can’t take a similar leave. Our society has decided that, if you need some time off as part of your compensation package in order to deal with a new kid, your employer must offer it to you; if you don’t, your employer needn’t offer it to you. > > Bricker’s OP seems to be in opposition to such laws. Congrats on your daughter. I’m not catching your point about your brother. Should he get parental leave if he’s not a parent? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/33 "2013-02-06T17:58:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Or, even subtler than that. Right now I’m in the second week of my three weeks of paternity leave, granted me by the FMLA. I can take this leave because I have a newborn daughter. My brother, who has no such daughter, can’t take a similar leave. Our society has decided that, if you need some time off as part of your compensation package in order to deal with a new kid, your employer must offer it to you; if you don’t, your employer needn’t offer it to you. > > Bricker’s OP seems to be in opposition to such laws. As an aside to that, what about the father? Should he get the same leave as the mother? Does the fact that this leave is offered and granted to mothers and not father determine that a woman’s labor is worth less (per hour)? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/34 "2013-02-06T17:59:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Congrats on your daughter. I’m not catching your point about your brother. Should he get parental leave if he’s not a parent? I think the argument here is that it should work more like medical leave, in which everyone gets the same amount and it doesn’t matter the specific purpose for which it is used. The trouble with trying to equalize maternity/parent leave is that there is no equivalent need for non parents. If you just substitute vacation time for maternity leave the costs will skyrocket, so I don’t know if there is a solution to that. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/35 "2013-02-06T18:04:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think the argument here is that it should work more like medical leave, in which everyone gets the same amount and it doesn’t matter the specific purpose for which it is used. The trouble with trying to equalize maternity/parent leave is that there is no equivalent need for non parents. If you just substitute vacation time for maternity leave the costs will skyrocket, so I don’t know if there is a solution to that. Ok, that makes sense. I can see seperating out parents with newborns as a special case, but when you make special case policies it does tend to make things look unequal. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/36 "2013-02-06T18:09:01Z")
I see two things in this thread. First, the observation of the OP which is correct. He said the value of an hour of labor, not what would be paid in this or that policy environment. In labor economics the concept is “marginal revenue product of labor.” It means labor value is directly tied to production. That’s in theory. Then the rest of the thread is about all the ways the textbook economy is altered by reality. If there were no minimum wage, affirmative action, maternity leave, UNIONS - would the labor market be more textbook perfect? Yes it would. Would it be more equitable or socially desirable? Arguably not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/37 "2013-02-06T18:09:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Seems to me Bricker is arguing against any Minimum Wage or Living Wage laws. > > Bring on the child labor, they’re really cheap and their little hands are so good for . Maybe the OP will grace us with presnce again at some point and tell us exCtly what he is arguing. At this point who knos? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/38 "2013-02-06T18:18:01Z")
The confusion stems between considering the _employee_’s needs versus the _company_’s needs. Ask yourself why companies pay wages at all. Is it out of the kindness of their hearts? NO. It is because they must compete with other companies for employees. And competing with other companies requires paying a competitive salary and offering things like healthcare benefits and a salary consistent with the local cost of living. What they _don’t_ have to worry about is whether Janitor Bob can feed his family on a janitor’s salary or not. That’s Bob’s concern. If he can’t, he should find a better paying job. The company simply has to pay enough to attract qualified janitors at all. If they do, they don’t have to further worry about whether any individual janitor can make ends meet. They may say “Bob is a really good janitor, and we want to keep him here. Let’s pay him a little more so he can afford to stay”, but that is considering the company’s needs first, and Bob’s needs only incidentally. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/39 "2013-02-06T18:39:24Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The confusion stems between considering the _employee_’s needs versus the _company_’s needs. > > Ask yourself why companies pay wages at all. Is it out of the kindness of their hearts? NO. It is because they must compete with other companies for employees. And competing with other companies requires paying a competitive salary and offering things like healthcare benefits and a salary consistent with the local cost of living. > > What they _don’t_ have to worry about is whether Janitor Bob can feed his family on a janitor’s salary or not. That’s Bob’s concern. If he can’t, he should find a better paying job. The company simply has to pay enough to attract qualified janitors at all. If they do, they don’t have to further worry about whether any individual janitor can make ends meet. They may say “Bob is a really good janitor, and we want to keep him here. Let’s pay him a little more so he can afford to stay”, but that is considering the company’s needs first, and Bob’s needs only incidentally. Exactly. The operative point being “simply has to pay enough to attract qualified janitors.” Or, flip it around. If I’m comfortably well off because my wife’s career brings in plenty of money, why should I deserve less pay than some other fool with the same job title and performance who happens to have an idiotic teenager, or bunch of child support to pay, or an upside down mortgage to pay off? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492/40 "2013-02-06T18:42:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Congrats on your daughter. I’m not catching your point about your brother. Should he get parental leave if he’s not a parent? Thanks! Sorry I wasn’t clear. No, he shouldn’t, because he doesn’t need it. When Bricker says, “the need of a worker is not relevant when calculating the wage to be paid to that worker,” unless he’s excluding benefits like family leave from wage (which he technically is, but I suspect that’s not intentional), he seems to be suggesting that things like the FMLA are not good policy. I disagree, and offer my situation as an example of when the needs of the worker ought to be considered when determining compensation. > [@Kearsen](#): > > As an aside to that, what about the father? Should he get the same leave as the mother? Does the fact that this leave is offered and granted to mothers and not father determine that a woman’s labor is worth less (per hour)? Again, sorry if I was unclear: I am the father, and fathers get the same benefits as mothers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determining-the-value-of-an-hour-of-labor/649492.md?page=3)