# Determinism and decision-making **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082 "2010-10-14T03:20:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/21 "2010-10-15T00:06:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > … > > However there are certain levels of freedom. Some guy addicted to something, or psychotic, is clearly less free than the person who has a wider range of choices, still constrained by other factors but less so. > > As for determinism, while our actions may be deterministic in the philosophical sense, in all practical ways they are not, either in the sense of predicting an action or fully explaining the cause of a past action. So, giving a yes or no answer is more a matter of semantics than anything useful. I don’t get how there are degrees of freedom here. We’re talking about physics, not social studies. From the “mind-is-a-manifestation-of-atoms-following-physical-laws” point of view, both the drug addict and the successful businessman have exactly the same amount of “control” over their lives. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/22 "2010-10-15T02:03:02Z")
I think we’ve got at least three different kinds of “determinism” here. My own determinism which essentially states that things happen for a reason; effects have causes. There’s ITR’s and Thudlow’s “it is not possible to make a choice at all” determinism (I don’t know if anybody actually believes in that, however – even insects can choose whether to fly left or right). And then Voyager’s “can you predict the outcome ahead of time?” definition, which of course can’t be true for everything or the universe would be pretty boring. Then there are the “level of control” and “degrees of freedom” criteria that fit in somewhere. I still don’t know what “free will” means except the ability to make choices, which I don’t think anybody is disputing. Maybe we should straighten all these definitions out before the debate goes any further? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/23 "2010-10-15T02:10:34Z")
What is the opposite of determinism? I figure it’s randomness. How does randomness imply any kind of choice? In fact, I’m having a hard time finding how the idea of choice or free will fits into either philosophy. Do we have a choice, if the universe works by strict rules and everything is determined? Do we have a choice, if the universe works by rolling dice? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/24 "2010-10-15T02:29:53Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > What is the opposite of determinism? I figure it’s randomness. How does randomness imply any kind of choice? > > In fact, I’m having a hard time finding how the idea of choice or free will fits into either philosophy. Do we have a choice, if the universe works by strict rules and everything is determined? Do we have a choice, if the universe works by rolling dice? And that’s the problem; things can be deterministic or they can be random. Free will is supposed to be neither but what does that even _mean_? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/25 "2010-10-15T03:11:01Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > If you are really into determinism, then choice can’t be accredited to anyone, and that’s it. Cognition too would be determined. Maybe there still could be self-awareness, like Leibniz’s Monads, but any sense of control would be an illusion. > > > > So, good and evil could not be attributed to actions or behavior. Perhaps not to thoughts either. Maybe not to anything at all, besides the Prime Mover Itself. > > > > IOW, no, you don’t get credit for giving away your lunch under determinism. Nor would you be to blame for evil. > > I just don’t know why you’re saying any of this. Can you explain? There can’t be good and evil in a deterministic universe? Why? Why can’t we give people credit? I guess I already see things as deterministic, so I don’t understand why anything would have to be different. A perfectly deterministic universe might as well be one big watch. It was wound up (presumably by the Prime Mover) and set in motion long ago. Every single thing that happens is as predictable as the turning of gears. Predictable, that is, if you can accumulate enough data, which is problematic. If it were possible to take a snapshot of the entire universe, every single particle and wave, along with its velocity, direction, etc., from that you would be able to extrapolate the entire history of the universe both forwards and backwards. Because it is simply a machine. So there can’t be good or evil in a deterministic universe because there really aren’t any individuals. Any concept or sense of choice is illusory. Everything that is going to happen is already predetermined. It isn’t your fault or your credit, because at no point is it _you_. > [@](#): > > People make choices. Just because those choices are caused by something else (like the state of their brain, which is caused by their past influences, which is caused by… et cetera) doesn’t mean they didn’t make those choices or can’t be held responsible. Murderers are evil whether they _could_ have made another choice or not (whatever that even means). In a deterministic universe, people don’t make choices. Your whole life, and everyone else’s life, and everything else that happens, is part of a script that is already decided by the machinery of what has been set in motion. Maybe it _seems_ like you make choices, but in a deterministic universe seeming is far as the concept of choice goes. Again, nobody ever has or ever will make a choice in a deterministic universe, because that universe is one big clock. Would you like me to share how I personally resolved this conundrum? Because there certainly are deterministic elements to the universe. The sun is going to shine whether anybody likes it or not. The pubbies could regain control of the government and launch the world’s arsenal of nuclear weapons at the sun in an effort to end it’s tyranny, and if it could, it would just laugh. So snuffing out the sun is simply not within anyone’s power to accomplish, and so its behavior remains (mostly) determined. But people do have some degree of power over themselves and their environments (or at least they seem to). Insofar as a person has the _power_ to will something, and sees it through, why then such things fall under the power of someone’s will first, and under the inertia of the universe’s underlying determinism second. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/26 "2010-10-15T03:55:20Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > So there can’t be good or evil in a deterministic universe because there really aren’t any individuals. Any concept or sense of choice is illusory. Everything that is going to happen is already predetermined. It isn’t your fault or your credit, because at no point is it _you_. That’s nonsense. Determinism has nothing to do with individuality. And there certainly can be good and evil, choices, fault and credit. After all, computer programs are deterministic, and they make choices, and we can fault or praise them. When a program screws up we don’t say “Oh, you can’t blame it, it’s deterministic”; we call it bugged and get a better program. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Your whole life, and everyone else’s life, and everything else that happens, is part of a script that is already decided by the machinery of what has been set in motion. Maybe it _seems_ like you make choices, but in a deterministic universe seeming is far as the concept of choice goes. Again, nobody ever has or ever will make a choice in a deterministic universe, because that universe is one big clock. You are assuming your own conclusion by defining choice as not being deterministic and then saying a deterministic universe has no such thing as choice. You have also failed to show how there could be any such thing as choice (or anything else) that is neither deterministic nor random. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/27 "2010-10-15T04:23:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > So there can’t be good or evil in a deterministic universe because there really aren’t any individuals. Any concept or sense of choice is illusory. Everything that is going to happen is already predetermined. It isn’t your fault or your credit, because at no point is it _you_. > > That’s nonsense. Determinism has nothing to do with individuality. Yeah, so what’s your point? There are no individuals in a deterministic universe. There is only the Big Clock. > [@](#): > > And there certainly can be good and evil, choices, fault and credit. No there cannot. You apparently do not understand (or share my understanding of) determinism. If the universe is one big machine, and “you” are a part of that machine, then you have no choices and therefore are incapable of either good or evil. > [@](#): > > After all, computer programs are deterministic, and they make choices, and we can fault or praise them. When a program screws up we don’t say “Oh, you can’t blame it, it’s deterministic”; we call it bugged and get a better program. Piffle. Computers can’t be good nor evil, they only do what they are told. And there are computer programs, and then there is the universe. But look, I attempt to resolve the problem of an absolutely machine-like universe to account for decision-making anyway, so this point doesn’t stand. Look at it this way: in a perfectly deterministic universe, even if a program or a human is capable of making choices, all the preconditions of those choices are predetermined, and so are the results. That’s it. There is no will in that case; therefore neither good nor evil. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Your whole life, and everyone else’s life, and everything else that happens, is part of a script that is already decided by the machinery of what has been set in motion. Maybe it _seems_ like you make choices, but in a deterministic universe seeming is far as the concept of choice goes. Again, nobody ever has or ever will make a choice in a deterministic universe, because that universe is one big clock. > [@](#): > > You are assuming your own conclusion by defining choice as not being deterministic and then saying a deterministic universe has no such thing as choice. No, I am laying out what a perfectly deterministic universe looks like. My concept of will + power is a separate layer on top of that. > [@](#): > > You have also failed to show how there could be any such thing as choice (or anything else) that is neither deterministic nor random. So have you. And everyone else. That is the weird thing about identity. If this one has a good explanation, I’d like to see the cite. It merely seems to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/28 "2010-10-15T04:57:41Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > That’s nonsense. Determinism has nothing to do with individuality. > > Yeah, so what’s your point? There are no individuals in a deterministic universe. There is only the Big Clock. It seems unlikely there could be individuals without determinism. Without a deterministic structure what’s to keep them from falling apart into chaos? > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > No there cannot. You apparently do not understand (or share my understanding of) determinism. If the universe is one big machine, and “you” are a part of that machine, then you have no choices and therefore are incapable of either good or evil. You again are assuming your conclusion, by assuming that a choice is automatically something non-determined. Determinism doesn’t mean you can’t make choices, it just means that the system that does the choosing operates on non-random mechanisms. It is in fact required for a choice to be meaningful; if your choices aren’t determined, then they are random. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Piffle. Computers can’t be good nor evil, they only do what they are told. Not at all, depending on design they can alter themselves on their own according to their input. Much as we do, just less sophisticated. The only reason a computer can’t be good or evil is because they are too stupid to know what they are doing, not because they are deterministic. Terms like"good" and “evil” in fact require determinism in order to have useful meaning. Without determinism the past and the nature of a being have no relevance because they don’t determine anything. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Look at it this way: in a perfectly deterministic universe, even if a program or a human is capable of making choices, all the preconditions of those choices are predetermined, and so are the results. That’s it. There is no will in that case; therefore neither good nor evil. “Will” is just as deterministic as the rest of the functions of the brain, a self control mechanism. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > You have also failed to show how there could be any such thing as choice (or anything else) that is neither deterministic nor random. > > So have you. And everyone else. I haven’t “failed”; I’ve repeatably said that there is no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/29 "2010-10-15T05:06:07Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > So there can’t be good or evil in a deterministic universe because there really aren’t any individuals. There can’t be individuals? What does that even mean? There can be good and evil because those are subjective human opinions and emotions regarding other people’s behavior as shaped by evolution. They don’t hang in Plato’s ideal world as a physical object. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/30 "2010-10-15T05:38:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > Yeah, so what’s your point? There are no individuals in a deterministic universe. There is only the Big Clock. > > It seems unlikely there could be individuals without determinism. Without a deterministic structure what’s to keep them from falling apart into chaos? Really, you don’t understand determinism. The Prime Mover sets everything up; everything else is just the playing-out. There are no individuals in the sense of anybody having any choice in anything (in a perfectly deterministic universe). Though, as I mentioned upthread, there could still exist self-aware, yet perfectly helpless, monad-type beings as described by Leibniz. > [@](#): > > You again are assuming your conclusion, by assuming that a choice is automatically something non-determined. Determinism doesn’t mean you can’t make choices, it just means that the system that does the choosing operates on non-random mechanisms. It is in fact required for a choice to be meaningful; if your choices aren’t determined, then they are random. It is a (hypothetically) determined universe we are talking about. Meaning, insofar as it exists for anything/one besides the Prime Mover (in this hypothetical deterministic universe), is non-effective. Maybe it is perceived, but never acted upon. Because there is _no one_ to act. Everything else is a machine-part. Do you get it? I guess what I am saying is that choices are either determined, random, or _willed_. > [@](#): > > Not at all, depending on design they can alter themselves on their own according to their input. Much as we do, just less sophisticated. The only reason a computer can’t be good or evil is because they are too stupid to know what they are doing, not because they are deterministic. Irrelevant. In a deterministic universe all of these permutations are already determined. Humans are different. They (seem to) have free will- within the limits of their power that is. > [@](#): > > Terms like"good" and “evil” in fact require determinism in order to have useful meaning. Without determinism the past and the nature of a being have no relevance because they don’t determine anything. No they do not. They are meaningless in a deterministic context. An action cannot be either good nor evil if it is not willed by a free agent. In a perfectly deterministic universe there are no free agents, and therefore no good nor evil. In what I believe to be the actual universe, there are free agents, though there is still a significant degree of deterministic phenomena. > [@](#): > > “Will” is just as deterministic as the rest of the functions of the brain, a self control mechanism. I guess we disagree here. “Will” is the (only) exit-point from the deterministic universe. Exercise it and you have some free agency. Don’t bother and you are just another part of the machine. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > So have you. And everyone else. > > I haven’t “failed”; I’ve repeatably said that there is no such thing. Bare assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/31 "2010-10-15T05:44:34Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > So there can’t be good or evil in a deterministic universe because there really aren’t any individuals. > > There can’t be individuals? What does that even mean? > > There can be good and evil because those are subjective human opinions and emotions regarding other people’s behavior as shaped by evolution. They don’t hang in Plato’s ideal world as a physical object. Again, in a deterministic universe the only ‘being’ possessing will is the Prime Mover. Everything else is simply a consequence of the Prime Mover’s initial decisions (except, perhaps, the inconsequential reactions of the helpless, Leibniz-esque monad-observers). So, no matter how much you feel like an individual, you are actually helpless to actually choose anything whatsoever (in this hypothetical deterministic universe). What this has to do with Plato is… yet to be determined. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/32 "2010-10-15T05:46:33Z")
Ok, I suppose there could be good or evil in terms of maintaining the proper opinions. But nobody can do anything about those opinions in a deterministic universe; everything will play out exactly the same regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/33 "2010-10-15T06:17:57Z")
Determinism is what allows you to make choices. Your choices are determined by you. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be your choices. I don’t see how determinism makes things like good or evil meaningless. It seems to be what makes them possible. I suspect that what many people are uncomfortable with is not determinism, which is essential, but rather with determinism via fragile physical entities. I don’t want to define myself as my body, because my body is dying and vulnerable to drastic changes that it can’t control. That could lead to choices I currently disagree with. Perhaps the conclusion is that I, in the sense I want to think of “I”, will already be long dead when my future body makes those choices. That too is uncomfortable. To test this theory, imagine yourself as being a non-physical soul. An immortal, untouchable, invincible soul which could not be affected by anything physical. This soul is the true “you.” The actions of this true “you” are nevertheless deterministic. They are determined precisely by “you.” Are you still uncomfortable? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/34 "2010-10-15T06:24:26Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > So, no matter how much you feel like an individual, you are actually helpless to actually choose anything whatsoever (in this hypothetical deterministic universe). You define an individual as an entity with free will. No free will, no individual. I’m not sure why one would do that, but fair enough. Are ants individuals? I think ants are extremely advanced automatons, but they’re still individuals because they make decisions within self contained bodies. Even if made within a narrow antworld framework. And I don’t see a reason to be arrogant regarding their limits. Somewhere there is a race that is to us as we are to ants. I don’t understand the relevance of good or evil regarding determinism. You seem to be religious with all the references to a prime mover with a will, so maybe that’s where this is coming from. Good and evil, beyond being opinions of human beings, don’t factually exist even with free will. Or with a God. That seems like a separate topic, but maybe I’m missing something. But alright, I’m not an individual and there’s no such thing as good and evil. What of it? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/35 "2010-10-15T06:30:26Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > To test this theory, imagine yourself as being a non-physical soul. An immortal, untouchable, invincible soul which could not be affected by anything physical. This soul is the true “you.” The actions of this true “you” are nevertheless deterministic. They are determined precisely by “you.” Are you still uncomfortable? That is an entirely hypothetical example. Otherwise no it does not make me uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable at the prospect of moving out of this perspective- that amounts more to mortality than physical death. I don’t think the actions of this ‘true you’ would be deterministic, but rather fall under the 3rd category of ‘will’ described above. They admit a will other than that of the Prime Mover; therefore they wouldn’t be deterministic. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/36 "2010-10-15T06:43:46Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > So, no matter how much you feel like an individual, you are actually helpless to actually choose anything whatsoever (in this hypothetical deterministic universe). > > You define an individual as an entity with free will. No free will, no individual. I’m not sure why one would do that, but fair enough. Maybe you are a helpless observer. Could happen. > [@](#): > > Are ants individuals? I think ants are extremely advanced automatons, but they’re still individuals because they make decisions within self contained bodies. Even if made within a narrow antworld framework. And I don’t see a reason to be arrogant regarding their limits. Somewhere there is a race that is to us as we are to ants. > > I don’t understand the relevance of good or evil regarding determinism. You seem to be religious with all the references to a prime mover with a will, so maybe that’s where this is coming from. It isn’t so much that I am religious than that the description of a deterministic universe requires a Prime Mover. > [@](#): > > Good and evil, beyond being opinions of human beings, don’t factually exist even with free will. Or with a God. That seems like a separate topic, but maybe I’m missing something. Separate topic. This is determinism. > [@](#): > > But alright, I’m not an individual and there’s no such thing as good and evil. What of it? What of it? In a purely deterministic universe one can only be at best an observer. There is hardly any ‘what of it’, in terms of actually doing anything about it that is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/37 "2010-10-15T06:49:46Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > It seems unlikely there could be individuals without determinism. Without a deterministic structure what’s to keep them from falling apart into chaos? > > Really, you don’t understand determinism. The Prime Mover sets everything up; everything else is just the playing-out. There are no individuals in the sense of anybody having any choice in anything (in a perfectly deterministic universe). You yet again assume your own conclusion by simply assuming that “choice” is incompatible with determinism. And there’s no reason to believe in any “prime mover”, or that if it existed it would have the undefined quality of “free will”. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > It is a (hypothetically) determined universe we are talking about. Meaning, insofar as it exists for anything/one besides the Prime Mover (in this hypothetical deterministic universe), is non-effective. Maybe it is perceived, but never acted upon. Because there is _no one_ to act. Everything else is a machine-part. Do you get it? Very, very, very complex “machine parts”. It is a particular form of complexity that makes people people, not some imagined free will. And of course it’s “acted upon”, just in a deterministic fashion. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I guess what I am saying is that choices are either determined, random, or _willed_. And you have no evidence that the third category is even meaningful, much less possible, much less real. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Not at all, depending on design they can alter themselves on their own according to their input. Much as we do, just less sophisticated. The only reason a computer can’t be good or evil is because they are too stupid to know what they are doing, not because they are deterministic. > > Irrelevant. In a deterministic universe all of these permutations are already determined. Humans are different. They (seem to) have free will- within the limits of their power that is. You have no evidence that humans are “different” in that fashion. Someone who didn’t know that sophisticated self-altering computer programs were constructs might make the same arguments you are to claim that they have “free will”. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > No they do not. They are meaningless in a deterministic context. An action cannot be either good nor evil if it is not willed by a free agent. In a perfectly deterministic universe there are no free agents, and therefore no good nor evil. In what I believe to be the actual universe, there are free agents, though there is still a significant degree of deterministic phenomena. You have no evidence that “free agent” is even a logically coherent concept, much less the truth. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I haven’t “failed”; I’ve repeatably said that there is no such thing. > > Bare assertion. And the logical default. You are claiming that something exists, therefore it is your job to demonstrate it or even just _define_ it; not mine to prove a negative. There is determinism, and there is randomness. There isn’t even a rational definition of “free will” much less evidence for it existing. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/38 "2010-10-15T07:04:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There is determinism, and there is randomness. There isn’t even a rational definition of “free will” much less evidence for it existing. Piffle. Without free will, how could I be so cool? But again, in the context of determinism, there is no free will. And therefore neither good nor evil. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/39 "2010-10-15T07:15:02Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > There is determinism, and there is randomness. There isn’t even a rational definition of “free will” much less evidence for it existing. > > Piffle. Without free will, how could I be so cool? > > But again, in the context of determinism, there is no free will. And therefore neither good nor evil. Free will, again, is a meaningless and undefined concept. Words that sound nice but mean nothing. It is unnecessary to calling something good or evil. Determinism on the other hand is necessary to call anything good or evil because both concepts require causality be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082/40 "2010-10-15T07:18:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, that’s just a deterministic decision making system, your brain, deciding between options. Computers make decisions all the time after all, it doesn’t require some mystical “free will”. > > Free will IS a nonsensical concept. It’s not determinism, it’s not random, it’s some undefined thing. Consciousness is also an undefined thing. Yet we don’t doubt that consciousness exists. No computer makes decisions at a level of sophistication that a human does: if it did it could pass the Turing test. (Well, not really, but a computer that could pass the Turing test might be said to have free will, unless you agree with Searle.) Please explain how free will is a nonsense concept and consciousness is not. My contention (hypothesis really) is that free will is that subset of consciousness which is more sophisticated than the other less sophisticated subset of consciousness. So Searle’s dog may have consciousness, but it doesn’t have free will. I see that I haven’t addressed the OP though. That’s a problem. Perhaps my distinction has little analytic power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/determinism-and-decision-making/557082.md?page=3)