# Deterring Iran from making nukes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163 "2010-02-16T04:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/81 "2010-02-18T20:55:12Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Yeah, there are a few dummies on the board but most people seem fairly sensible.😉 Indeed. Despite the barrage of posts by members of the “Israel Can Do No Wrong” brigade (one wonders if they get paid by the word seeing the sheer length of their diatribes) it does appear that more and more Americans – including those of Jewish descent – are opening their eyes and beginning to distance themselves from the Israeli far-right and their appalling methods in dealing with the Palestinians. [The Decline of the Israeli Right and the Increasing Desperation of the ‘Anti-Semitism’ Charge](http://www.juancole.com/2010/02/decline-of-israeli-right-and-increasing.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*…But the harbingers of isolation are numerous. The Netanyahu government has largely defied President Obama’s requests for a halt to the colonization of the West Bank (a freeze on building new settlements in part of the West Bank, while existing settlements are expanded and Palestinians are thrown in the street in Jerusalem does not count). > > The Israeli siege of the children of Gaza, some of whom are looking skinnier, is impossible to justify and provoked even a US congressman to urge a forceful breaking of the blockade. The Goldstone Report on Israeli war crimes (and which also acknowledges Hamas war crimes) for the United Nations is likely to attain an official status of a sort denied to previous such clear-eyed examinations of Israeli military action. (Israel’s leadership suffered not the least from dropping nearly a million cluster bombs on the civilian farms of southern Lebanon in the last 3 days of the 2006 Lebanon War, though this targeting of civilians was illegal and the US Congress had stipulated that the weapons could not be used that way). > > The reactionary parties of Likud, Shas, and Yisrael Beitenu have nothing in common with the vast majority of Jewish Americans, who voted for Barack Obama and are generally more progressive than non-Jewish Americans. The establishment of a liberal Jewish lobby, J Street, which supports a two-state solution (Israel and Palestine side by side), is a manifestation of the increasing unease of progessive Jewish Americans with the policies and aggressive wars of rightwing Israeli governments. Jewish Americans have been key to the securing of many of our civil liberties in this country and a major voice for peace and for culture and the arts, and a thug like Avigdor Lieberman as foreign minister surely makes many of them uneasy. It is no accident that the Likud government has snubbed a delegation of US Congress members to Israel who support J Street. The Netanyahu government is all about colonizing more of the West Bank and preventing the rise of a Palestinian state. > > Then you have Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein supporting the movement to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza civilians, including children. > > The Israeli occupation and colonization of the West Bank provoked former president Jimmy Carter to warn of an Apartheid situation. Although he was viciously attacked by the likes of Alan Dershowitz and subjected to the typical dirty tricks deployed by fanatical nationalists of all stripes, he has been vindicated by remarks of Israeli politician Ehud Barak, who just said the same thing Carter had… \*\* – much more at source, including many links from within the article itself. Yet another great read from Juan Cole. And then you have critical statements such as the following, from [**Auschwitz survivor Dr. Hajo Meyer**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlFR541Uoo). Guess it’ll be interesting to see how they try to attach the “anti-Semite” label to Dr Meyer. Of course, there’s always the “self-hating Jew” when all else fails… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/82 "2010-02-18T21:34:04Z")
Yes Red, thank you for providing an object lesson of the behavior I’m talking about. IIRC you were one of the folks who posted in a thread in which I’d just said that the US should threaten to cut off all aid to Israel if they didn’t immediately freeze settlement construction and claimed that I was someone who’d always support Israel no matter what. Like I said right above, for some folks’ narratives, facts are just an annoying hurdle to be gotten past. Just like, this is a thread about Iran and for some reasons (gee, I wonder) you want to make it all about how you dislike Israel. And, it’s also kind of you to provide yet more object lessons as you go on. The “siege of the children of Gaza” (something tells me that you’re not the slightest bit bothered by such deceptive nonsense) coupled with “ZOMG, everybody ever who disagrees with anything Israel does is called an anti-Semite!!!”. And we can add on Cole’s lie that rather than Carter’s endless stream of mendacious lies, it was “dirty tricks” that caused people to object to Carter lying his head off in support of his one-sided narrative. And Israel wages “aggressive wars” even though it has never done so, not even once, in its entire history. It’s like you’re playing Debunked Nonsense Bingo. How many more do you need to take home the toaster oven? Can you work in some sinister musings about the “Jewish Lobby”, eh? You’ve already got well-known liar Cole talking about J-Street as a “Jewish” organization. Funny, of course, [as it’s not](http://jstreet.org/about/about-us). But some folks gotta get their licks in where they can. [ > [@](#): > > “Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian,” remarked Juan Cole, a Middle East specialist at the University of Michigan and critic of American policy who has argued that the Iranian president was misquoted. “He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse.” Since Iran has not “attacked another country aggressively for over a century,” he said in an e-mail exchange, “I smell the whiff of war propaganda.” ]([http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)) Of course that’s actually a pair of lies as he lied about the context/translation and lied about Iran not attacking other nations. It has, in fact, done so more than once in the last few decades. Facts get in the way of some stories, of course. Anyways, Cole was sloppier than normal here. His lie about Iran not attacking anybody might seem credible to those who aren’t perturbed by facts, but his lie about the Iranian statement? Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy as the Iranians themselves went on to refute it. > [@](#): > > If Mr. Steele and Mr. Cole are right, not one word of the quotation — Israel should be wiped off the map — is accurate. > > But translators in Tehran who work for the president’s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than “vanish” because the Persian verb is active and transitive. > > The second translation issue concerns the word “map.” Khomeini’s words were abstract: “Sahneh roozgar.” Sahneh means scene or stage, and roozgar means time. The phrase was widely interpreted as “map,” and for years, no one objected. In October, when Mr. Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini, he actually misquoted him, saying not “Sahneh roozgar” but “Safheh roozgar,” meaning pages of time or history. No one noticed the change, and news agencies used the word “map” again. > > Ahmad Zeidabadi, a professor of political science in Tehran whose specialty is Iran-Israel relations, explained: “It seems that in the early days of the revolution the word ‘map’ was used because it appeared to be the best meaningful translation for what he said. The words ‘sahneh roozgar’ are metaphorical and do not refer to anything specific. Maybe it was interpreted as ‘book of countries,’ and the closest thing to that was a map. Since then, we have often heard ‘Israel bayad az naghshe jographya mahv gardad’ — Israel must be wiped off the geographical map. Hard-liners have used it in their speeches.” > > The final translation issue is Mr. Ahmadinejad’s use of “occupying regime of Jerusalem” rather than “Israel.” > > To some analysts, this means he is calling for regime change, not war, and therefore it need not be regarded as a call for military action. Professor Cole, for example, says: “I am entirely aware that Ahmadinejad is hostile to Israel. The question is whether his intentions and capabilities would lead to a military attack, and whether therefore pre-emptive warfare is prescribed. I am saying no, and the boring philology is part of the reason for the no.” > > But to others, “occupying regime” signals more than opposition to a certain government; the phrase indicates the depth of the Iranian president’s rejection of a Jewish state in the Middle East because he refuses even to utter the name Israel. He has said that the Palestinian issue “does not lend itself to a partial territorial solution” and has called Israel “a stain” on Islam that must be erased. By contrast, Mr. Ahmadinejad’s predecessor, Mohammad Khatami, said that if the Palestinians accepted Israel’s existence, Iran would go along. Thank you for providing a very clear example (well, Carter counts as another) of someone who is more than happy to lie through his teeth if it will further his political agenda. I talk about the problem with keeping debates on this subject honest, and you provide a politically motivated pack of lies from Cole. And of course you do this in a thread where someone voices support for genocidal racists who want to wipe the Jews out of existence, and you can’t be bothered to spare a single word. If I wanted a better object lesson of what I’m talking about, I’d probably be out of luck. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/83 "2010-02-19T00:48:18Z")
Quite welcomed, Finn. And thank you for acknowledging you’re part of the brigade I alluded to…as I didn’t mention you by name. In any event, I refuse to get into The Mother Of All Battles Of The Dueling Scrolls – though all debates involving you compete for said title – and let the sagacious reader decide which of the arguments and linked to cites they side with. TTFN ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/84 "2010-02-19T01:16:11Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And thank you for acknowledging you’re part of the brigade I alluded to…as I didn’t mention you by name. Thank you for yet another object lesson. I point out that your argument is full of shit and deliberately ignores facts in order to spin a partisan narrative, and you respond by acting as if, by showing your claims were full of shit, I was accepting membership in the fictional group you invented to slime me with. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/85 "2010-02-19T01:31:53Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Indeed. Despite the barrage of posts by members of the “Israel Can Do No Wrong” brigade (one wonders if they get paid by the word seeing the sheer length of their diatribes) it does appear that more and more Americans – including those of Jewish descent – are opening their eyes and beginning to distance themselves from the Israeli far-right and their appalling methods in dealing with the Palestinians. > > [The Decline of the Israeli Right and the Increasing Desperation of the ‘Anti-Semitism’ Charge](http://www.juancole.com/2010/02/decline-of-israeli-right-and-increasing.html) > > \*\* – much more at source, including many links from within the article itself. Yet another great read from Juan Cole. > > And then you have critical statements such as the following, from [**Auschwitz survivor Dr. Hajo Meyer**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlFR541Uoo). > > Guess it’ll be interesting to see how they try to attach the “anti-Semite” label to Dr Meyer. Of course, there’s always the “self-hating Jew” when all else fails… And it’s upsetting the really righty Likudnik Jewish Americans who can’t understand why American Jews won’t get with the program. The problem is all the big money donors support the AIPAC line which is generally hardline Likudnik policies. American Jews in general don’t support military action against Iran but the big political donors do. It makes you wonder about the big pro-AIPAC fundraisers and the way they see the world, wanting the American military to bomb everybody they think is a threat to a country they have an emotional attachment to. They were probably all bullied at school. The weak boys. The ones who spent quality time stuffed in their own locker with their underpants wedged up their asses. It’s not a good thing that people like this have so much input on electing American politicians and American foreign policy. You’re just not allowed to have any opinion other than a solidly pro-Israel one if you’re a public figure and you don’t want to be accused of being anti-Israel or antisemitic. An even-handed viewpoint is unacceptable. It’s now at the stage where they’ve got an effective veto over American governmental appointments. They just smear anybody they don’t like till they get their way, which kind of enforces a pro-Israel orthodoxy on American government. So while the majority of Jewish-Americans might reject all this the people with the power are having more and more success at enforcing what they want on the American polity. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/86 "2010-02-19T01:38:29Z")
Like I said, constant fact-checking required in the face of relentless narratives. Quite a shame. Aside from the Conspiracy Theory about AIPAC’s nefarious control, the charming Dual Loyalty slur and making the whole issue about “American Jews”, let’s look at the facts. Does AIPAC want to attack Iran? Well, no, that’s simply not true. AIPAC wants robust sanctions. [ > [@](#): > > More robust penalties could persuade the Iranian regime to suspend its nuclear pursuit. > > ``` > * Further sanctions, such as an arms embargo, enforced travel bans, asset freezes and other economic sanctions, would bring more pressure to bear on the Iranian government and further stimulate internal forces already pushing the regime to alter its nuclear policies. > > * Imposing more robust economic sanctions will likely push foreign companies still considering business deals with Iran to reconsider such investments. > > * Restrictions on Bank Melli -- Iran's largest state-owned bank and reportedly involved in Iran's nuclear program -- and the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, which is deeply involved in the country's weapons proliferation activities, would dramatically raise the financial pressure on the Iranian regime. > > ``` > > The United Nations should act quickly to impose further sanctions as Iran continues to advance its uranium enrichment program. ]([http://www.aipac.org/The\_Issues/2387.asp?view=print](http://www.aipac.org/The_Issues/2387.asp?view=print)) Oops. Anybody want to lay odds on either a factual retraction or whether or not the narrative will change now that the claims it was based upon are shown to be non-facts? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/87 "2010-02-19T03:07:47Z")
I don’t think anybody paying attention would deny that there’s an ongoing campaign by the Israeli regime, AIPAC and its fellow travellers in America to start military action against Iran. And I don’t think anybody would deny that the Israel lobby is very powerful in America. It’s been rated the most powerful single lobby in the country by the well-known left wing Forbes Magazine, and when you look at the competition thahen that’s really saying something. And it’s also true that merican presidential candidates competing for the all-important Jewish-American donations all take hardline stances on Iran even when in the past they may not have taken hardline positions on military action in the region. And it’s also true to say that some of the US Likudnik faction make explicit appeals to the wider Jewsish-American community to vote for the more pro-Israel GOP on the basis that they should have a level of loyalty to Israel. Anyway, here’s some antisemite looking at how AIPAC are trying to push America into bombing Iran, or letting the largest US Welfare Queen, the IDF, do it with American help: A case in point is Iran. That bogey-nation was everywhere at the Aipac conference. Every keynote speech – if they weren’t directly written by that group’s staff – seemed unmistakably scripted and “on message”, dedicated to the existential threat that Iran poses not just to Israel, but the entire world. A glossy brochure distributed at the Aipac meeting showed a map (pictured below) centred on Iran and beyond, with a dark ominous ring around Iran’s neighbours and as far away as India, Russia, Africa and eastern Europe. The message: these are the countries under imminent threat of Iranian ballistic missiles. [![](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/5/14/1242316829681/aipac_map.jpg) ](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/5/14/1242316829681/aipac_map.jpg) A map contained in a brochure distributed at an Aipac meeting The brochure copy even intimates that the next step for Iran is “building a missile with range to reach US territory”. (Never mind that Iran doesn’t yet have any ballistic missile capable of carrying a nuclear weapon, nor will it have the bomb itself for anywhere from a year to five years depending on which you source you choose to believe.) Israel is in the midst of a massive diplomatic, political and intelligence campaign, both public and covert, that could lead – if those officials behind it have their way – towards a military strike on Iran. It is a war for the hearts and minds of Americans. Or you might call it the war before the war. In intelligence circles, this Israeli project is known as [perception management](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management)and [defined by the department of defence](http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/new_pubs/jp1_02.pdf) as: Actions to convey and/or deny information … to foreign audiences to influence their emotions, motives and objective reasoning as well as to intelligence systems and leaders … ultimately resulting in foreign behaviours and official actions favourable to [US] objectives. In various ways, perception management combines truth projection, operations security, cover and deception and psychological operations. The Israelis are following the template of the Bush administration’s run-up to the Iraq war. First, the US government advocated half-hearted efforts at diplomatic engagement. Then it ratcheted up pressure through sanctions and UN resolutions. That is where the Israeli campaign stands now. Aipac’s members carried a unified message to Capitol Hill during their lobbying of US senators and members of Congress. They [demanded that Congress pass the most draconian sanctions](http://aipac.org/694.asp) ever proposed against Iran. They demanded that Iran be offered a limited time in which to respond to an ultimatum insisting it drop its nuclear programme. What then? If you review Aipac’s literature and the various commentaries published either by Israeli diplomats or their supporters in the US media, they don’t specify what comes next. But any sensible person can guess that [the final step will be war](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1083471.html): “Israeli leaders have … hinted at pre-emptive military strikes if they decide that diplomacy has failed.” > **[Aipac's hidden persuaders | Richard Silverstein](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/may/13/aipac-iran-us-obama)** > > Richard Silverstein: The Israel lobby is aiming to soften up US public opinion for an attack on Iran. Americans should resist its propaganda ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/88 "2010-02-19T04:26:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Anybody want to lay odds on either a factual retraction or whether or not the narrative will change now that the claims it was based upon are shown to be non-facts? It’s like I’m psychic or something. I also couldn’t have predicted that, beaten on the facts about Iran, some folks would try to turn the discussion to Israel. What’re the odds? Ah well. More fact checking (we can ignore the nonsense about “all-important” Jews and the double standard whereby if Forbes allegedly says something you agree with then it’s gospel but when it calls Iran[a looming nuclear threat to the rest of the world](http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0721/024.html), why, that’s neocon craziness!): Claim: military aid to Israel goes to support the IDF and makes it a “welfare queen” Factual status: bullshit Truth: by roughly a 3:1 ratio, military funding for Israel actually [goes to subsidize American companies.](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html) Tacit claim: aid to Israel is somehow massive and disproportionate, propping them up via ‘welfare’. Factual status: bullshit very similar to Walt and Mearsheimer’s bullshit. Truth: [The direct aid we give to Israel](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html) is totally in keeping with the aid we provide to South Korea via our military deployment there, and NK does not offer us a port or intel connections in the most strategically vital region in the world. Overt claim: Intelligence agencies claim that Israel is trying to influence American hearts and minds and they call it “Perception management” and Israel is planning on attacking Iran. Factual status: bullshit Truth: You didn’t see a cite for Dick’s claim, did you? Just a wiki link to the general definition of the term. Gee, I wonder why. Most likely because we’ve been hearing for _years_ now about how Israel/the US/Moby Dick with a bad attiude are just about to bomb Iran, any day now, any day now… it’s as true (and as supported) now as it was then. Claim: AIPAC “demanded” that the US pass the “most draconian” sanctions against Iran EVARRR! Factual status: not only bullshit, but rebutted by Dick’s own cite. Truth: as Dick’s handy auto-refutation shows, AIPAC congratulated Congress on legislation that it passed. AIPAC’s [call for tougher sanctions](http://www.aipac.org/Publications/AIPACAnalysesMemos/AIPAC_Memo_-_Sanctions_Needed_Now_to_Prevent_Nuclear_Iran.pdf) happened _today_ and, in the reality we all inhabit, includes no ultimatum or deadline, at all. Not to mention the ‘logic’ of claiming that AIPAC is pushing for war as proven by the fact that they are not pushing for war. As I’ve said, some narratives don’t need no facts. Tacit claim: Israel is running on a timetable and will attack _any! day! now!!!_ Factual status: refuted by common sense (and, again, Dick’s own cite) Truth: [8 months ago, Lieberman suggested a three month deadline](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1083471.html) _for pure diplomacy with active steps being taken after that_. Israeli officials actually called for sanctions after that point, and it’s five months past the dreaded 3 month deadline in any case. But ~gasp, shock, horror!~ there were ‘hints’ that Israel would attack, say it with me, any day now. Now, not that I mind these charming factual refutation sessions, but this thread is about deterring Iran from making nukes. If you want to start a thread about Israel, why don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/89 "2010-02-19T16:59:20Z")
It seems some people are entitled to their own set of facts. I think it’s quite obvious that the Israeli regime, AIPAC etc. are pushing the US for military action on Iran, either to take it or help Israel to do it. And it’s even more clear that Israel are the biggest US welfare case, getting billions of dollars in aid every year and tens of billions in loan guarantees from the US ggovernment. On a per capita basis Isral’s citizens make more in US welfare payments than any other country. I’m pleased that you now agree with me that the Israel lobby is very powerful in America. Whatever Forbes magazine has to say about other things is irrelevant. I’m simply showing that even a right wing Israel-friendly publication recognises how powerful the Israel lobby is in America. I also note that you’re not arguing with me over these other two points I made : _American presidential candidates competing for the all-important Jewish-American donations all take hardline stances on Iran even when in the past they may not have taken hardline positions on military action in the region. And it’s also true to say that some of the US Likudnik faction make explicit appeals to the wider Jewsish-American community to vote for the more pro-Israel GOP on the basis that they should have a level of loyalty to Israel._ That’s good. At least we seem to have some points of agreement over the growth of influence and power of the Jewish lobby and its fellow travellers in America. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/90 "2010-02-19T19:07:47Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > It seems some people are entitled to their own set of facts. I think it’s quite obvious that the The things I just refuted with facts are still true, because you believe you are entitled to your own facts. You’re not. You’re still wrong. And pointing to groups not pushing for war as proof of how much they’re pushing for war really does typify how your argument works. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I’m pleased that you now agree with me that the Israel lobby is very powerful in America. I’m pleased to note that you have stopped beating your wife and will leave the poor woman be, her medical bills were truly staggering. Oh, sorry, what I’m actually pleased about is that yet again you (lo and behold!) somehow manage to read text that doesn’t exist. Of course, statements about AIPAC’s influence are often far overblown and when it comes down to proof (where is the US embassy in Israel?) the “AIPAC controls the government!” conspiracy theory dies on the vine. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Whatever Forbes magazine has to say about other things is irrelevant. Exactly. You don’t actually care about their factual claims at all, you’re just willing to cherry pick and use them when they’re convenient and throw them away when they’re not. There are a few words for that sort of tactic. “Cherry picking” is probably the most mild. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I also note that you’re not arguing with me over these other two points I made : Please don’t pull the “I give you bullshit fussilade, and you only show how most of it is totally factually baseless and you do not address some of it. Victory is mine!!!” In point of fact, I noted that one was pure nonsense and didn’t mention the other. Yet again (how’s your wife doing, her broken bones healing up yet?) I’ll note that somehow you read a statement where I say something is nonsense and later claim that I was really agreeing with you. I suppose you need a factual refutation on your latest nonsense as well, but I know you’ll just repeat it anyways. If you’re really curious, google Obama’s actual position on Iran before the election which was anything but hardline, or look at the fact that AIPAC wants our embassy in a specific location in Israel and no US president, ever, has complied and yet somehow they get re-elected sometimes (despite the eeeeeevil all powerful lobby). > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > the growth of influence and power of the Jewish lobby You’re letting your game slip. Maybe you should take it back a notch to praising genocidal anti-semites instead of forgetting to use the discredited nonsense about a vast amorphous “Israel Lobby” in order to spin conspiracies about those dastardly Jews who make up the “Jewish lobby”. Even most conspiracy theorists have realized that a conspiracy that singles out Jews rather than political affinity groups is somewhat unpalatable to most folks. It’d be like claiming that the NRA was part of the vast conspiracy of the “Christian Lobby”. It just makes it clear what your argument is about, is all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/91 "2010-02-19T20:11:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … or look at the fact that AIPAC wants our embassy in a specific location in Israel and no US president, ever, has complied and yet somehow they get re-elected sometimes (despite the eeeeeevil all powerful lobby)… . This does not follow. Simply because one item on AIPAC’s agenda has yet to be achieved does not prove that AIPAC’s influence is not excessive. The influence of K Street lobbyists on Congress is grossly excessive, and they don’t get _everything_ they want either. I admire and respect the accomplishments of the Israeli people, but am not blind to the truth that there are radical elements within Israel who have lost all contact with reason and compromise. And some elements outside of Israel, as well. We must have peace between Israel and the Palestinians. We must. Period. Full stop. For there to be peace, at some point, someone will absorb a blow and not return it. I regard the Isrealis as the more rational and civilized of the main combatants, and can only hope they see the wisdom in my words. Have they legitimate grievances? Of course they do. But as Amos Oz famously pointed out, real tragedy occurs when both antagonists have legitimate grievances. The man who cannot see that, or will not act upon it, is the enemy of peace and a dire threat to us all. We must have peace. The only other option is death. And if that peace means I must swallow some shit, well, here’s my spoon, here’s my grin. Bring it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/92 "2010-02-19T20:22:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This does not follow. Simply because one item on AIPAC’s agenda has yet to be achieved does not prove that AIPAC’s influence is not excessive. Not getting us to formally recognize Israel’s capital city by placing our embassy there is hardly a minor matter. And if AIPAC can’t even get that, then claims that they control America’s foreign policy are hollow. That AIPAC has a certain amount of influence is not disputed. That they control American foreign policy is a joke. Even that their influence is “excessive” is hard to credit when the proof falsifies it. Conveniently, every time AIPAC is seen as not getting something that it wants, it’s handwaved away. But whenever someone happens that AIPAC would have wanted, whether AIPAC caused it or not, why, that just shows how much power they have. > [@elucidator](#): > > We must have peace. The only other option is death. And if that peace means I must swallow some shit, well, here’s my spoon, here’s my grin. Bring it. Actually, what you’re demanding is that _other people_ die for your political views while you sit comfortably ensconced in front of a computer, safe and sound in the United States. Awfully generous of you. And it’s also worth pointing out that it’s been tried. Remember how the PA was given direct control over something like 97% of Palestinian citizens? They were given armed police, they were offered numerous negotiating positions from which they could have built a state? Remember what happened? Israel took the violence for quite some time, even trying again with Clinton’s Bridging Proposal before the second Intifada was planned and launched. What you’re asking for is not for anybody to ignore the ‘first blow’, but for only one side to continually ignore attacks against its civilians, with an evidently limitless timetable. You also forget that Israel is a democracy. After enough attacks backed up by genocidal, rejectionist, racist rhetoric any government coalition that advises going along with their current tack would be voted out in a heartbeat. Despite your willingness to sacrifice Israelis, they (for some odd reason) seem not to share your view. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/93 "2010-02-19T20:49:14Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Not getting us to formally recognize Israel’s capital city by placing our embassy there is hardly a minor matter. [/QUOTE] It is to us. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/94 "2010-02-19T20:52:34Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > It is to us. Two points: 1. Actually, it isn’t. That’s the reason that although several presidents have had the ability to move the embassy, they block it due to concerns of the reactions to it. 2. Whether or not we do, Israel wants it, and AIPAC does as well. That it doesn’t get accomplished handily falsifies the claim that AIPAC/Israel determine our middle eastern policy. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/95 "2010-02-19T21:16:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Two points: > > 1. Actually, it isn’t. Is Taiwan in the UN yet? I forget. > [@](#): > > 2… Actually, it just shows that AIPAC is not _omnipotent_. They don’t have to be omnipotent in order to exert undue influence on us. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/96 "2010-02-19T21:25:14Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Is Taiwan in the UN yet? I forget. Charming non sequitor. > [@Squink](#): > > Actually, it just shows that AIPAC is not _omnipotent_. Actually it shows that AIPAC, and Israel, _do not set US foreign policy._ You can of course quibble about how much influence a group can weild before it’s ‘excessive’, but, meh. If the argument is reduced to 'AIPAC doesn’t set US policy and cannot command the US government to do its bidding, but it can sometimes in some ways influence things!" well, okay then. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/97 "2010-02-19T21:35:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Charming non sequitor. Not at all. Just because something’s jump up and down important to one party, doesn’t mean it’s the end all and be all of things that must be done to anyone else. Jerusalem’s like this, the status of Taiwan’s like this. Do you understand now? I expect not, but I’m not here to teach anyone rocket science, so will leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/98 "2010-02-19T21:41:00Z")
Nifty fallacy of equivocation. I pointed out that it wasn’t totally minor to us (the original claim which is falsified by the fact that we consider it a significant security question). You then equiovocate in order to rebut the charge, that nobody made, that it’s “jump up and down important” or “the end all and be all of things.” The simple fact is that it’s not a matter of no concern to us, and it is a matter of great concern to those who supposedly have massive influence on us. If your claims were correct and it was a matter of no real concern to us then it would be even stranger to argue that groups with “undue influence”, or what have you, can’t even get us to do something that we have no real opposition to. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/99 "2010-02-19T21:51:44Z")
You know, I think Israel making Jerusalem the capital is actually remarkably forward thinking. Nobody’s gonna nuke Jerusalem. Tel Aviv, maybe. But not Jerusalem. Only way they could protect themselves, really. Brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163/100 "2010-02-19T22:06:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nifty fallacy of equivocation. I pointed out that it wasn’t totally minor to us (the original claim which is falsified by the fact that we consider it a significant security question). You then equiovocate in order to rebut the charge, that nobody made, that it’s “jump up and down important” or “the end all and be all of things.” There you go again, makin friends for the country that is always right. Your logic remains unassailable as always. Thank you for this opportunity to have shit clarified for me. It really doesn’t stink at all, does it? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deterring-iran-from-making-nukes/529163.md?page=6)