# Detroit dopers - Why all the burned out homes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 21, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485 "2011-03-21T17:42:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/81 "2011-03-24T13:36:12Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > (Detroit has three casinos, and combined with our barbaric border crossing rules, it’s no longer the draw for Americans that it used to be). > > She’d be horrified to know how much money I spend (on behalf of my employer) in Windsor, which goes to those dirty, nasty, disgusting Canadians. Your not talking about the only [draw](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada) that Widsor has left over Detroit are you? 😃 I haven’t been to Widsor in years since it’s not any different than going to Detroit burbs for me; not worth the drive. I was actually suprised when the young Canadian girl who works in our office stated that her friends wanted her to pick up bottles of booze here since it was cheaper than it is in Canada; used to be the other way around when I was going over there. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/82 "2011-03-24T13:39:22Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Do you have any photos of Windsor(on the other side of the river) so we can see if the alleged destruction of Detroit is real? Alleged destruction? 😕 WTF; I don’t know wheter to laugh or cry. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/83 "2011-03-24T13:48:06Z")
I have some personal familiarity with abandonment of urban areas. My grandparents lived in Dorchester, MA-a largely blue collar part of Boston. Their home was in a 3-family house, which my grandfather had purchased in 1928. Dorchester was a pretty nice place until the early 1960’s-when there was a huge migration of people from the American South. Plus, around the same time, all the small factories and businesses in the area began to move out to the suburbs (Routes 93 and 128 were constructed and enlarged, which meant that people could move miles away and commute to work in Boston. By the mid-1970’s, the neighborhood was deteriorating badly-a man was shot to death down the street from the house. By that time, my grandparents had passed away, so their children sold the house and moved away-the house became run down, and was rented to several families on public assistance. In 1978, it burned to the ground (it was never rebuilt). Last year I took a ride by the old neighborhood-amny of the houses were in disrepair, and several were abandoned. There were drug addicts nodding out at a local park, and trash in the streets. A large protestant church on the top of Dorchester heights was visibly decaying, and hadn’t been painted in years. Had the city stepped up policing and and not allowed criminals to take over the streets, this would not have happened. What went on in Dorchester was the same as Detroit, on a smaller scale. but, equally preventable, had government done its job. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/84 "2011-03-24T14:11:59Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > > [@Susanann](#): > > > > Why not? > > > > …and then why does Windsor(on the other side of the river) have plenty of national chain grocery stores and no burned out buildings? If an explanation does not “fit”, then it is incorrect. If you can not explain “why not?”,then it is not an explanation. > > I see big holes and inconsistencies in everyone’s arguments and theories. > > “Mommy, that tiger is in a cage right next to that eagle! So why can’t the tiger fly, Mommy, why?!?” > > “Because they are two different animals, dear.” > mmm Anyone else wondering how Jared Lee Loughner got Internet access in jail? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/85 "2011-03-24T14:39:03Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Your not talking about the only [draw](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada) that Widsor has left over Detroit are you? 😃 Well, I think [Craigslist](http://detroit.craigslist.org) did away with that! > [@](#): > > I haven’t been to Widsor in years since it’s not any different than going to Detroit burbs for me; not worth the drive. I have an integrator over there, so I go to Windsor every once in a while. If I have to go anywhere east of London, though, it’s easier/faster to bypass Windsor and go through Sarnia. I’ve not gone to Windsor for fun in many, many years. It takes way too long to cross the border, and there’s no longer a premium on my dollar. > [@](#): > > I was actually suprised when the young Canadian girl who works in our office stated that her friends wanted her to pick up bottles of booze here since it was cheaper than it is in Canada; used to be the other way around when I was going over there. Oh, yeah. When I worked/lived in the GTA for a year, I’d buy Labatt Blue on the US side for $18. A “two-four” at The Beer Store was going for $40! Between Ontario’s sin taxes and the government sponsored monopoly on alcoholic beverages (the OLCB and The Beer Store), it’s horribly expensive to drink in Ontario! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/86 "2011-03-24T16:06:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Dorchester was a pretty nice place until the early 1960’s-when there was a huge migration of people from the American South. If you mean Negroes, say Negroes. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/87 "2011-03-24T16:34:12Z")
Maybe he just means Southerners? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/88 "2011-03-24T16:47:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Maybe he just means Southerners? Oh, I’m sure he means Baptists. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/89 "2011-03-24T16:53:10Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Had the city stepped up policing and and not allowed criminals to take over the streets, this would not have happened. What went on in Dorchester was the same as Detroit, on a smaller scale. but, equally preventable, had government done its job. Totally preventable! ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/90 "2011-03-24T17:08:02Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Totally preventable! Sure, all we need is a gigantic police budget. We’ll just raise taxes on the 1.8 million people… …wait, 900,000 people… …hang on, that’s 713,000 people… Where’d everybody go? 😕 Wow. Only 40% of the people that once lived here. And the properties that are still occupied have decreased in value so much that they’re not generating nearly the property tax revenue they once did. Shoot, we’re stuck paying to maintain all of these roads, and sewer systems, and water systems, over this massive area, with a fraction of the population we used to have, and a fraction of the commercial businesses we used to have. That doesn’t leave much revenue to pay for _anything,_ let alone a massive police presence. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/91 "2011-03-24T17:08:20Z")
[Interesting read:](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704461304576216850733151470.html) > [@](#): > > The flight of middle-class African-Americans to the suburbs fueled an exodus that cut Detroit’s population 25% in the past decade to 713,777, according to Census Bureau data released Tuesday. That’s the city’s lowest population level since the 1910 census, when automobile mass production was making Detroit Detroit. > [@](#): > > The Census report comes amid signs that the regional and state economies are beginning to stabilize. Michigan added 10,000 manufacturing jobs last year, and unemployment has dropped sharply. ETA: Simulpost w/ **Machine Elf**. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/92 "2011-03-24T17:09:40Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > I haven’t been to Widsor in years since it’s not any different than going to Detroit burbs for me; not worth the drive. . Windsor is still a clean city, orderly, a nice place to window shop or go out to eat, and has no burned out deserted buildings like Detroit. Windsor has clean, safe parks and riverfront. The Downtown business district of Windsor seems as healthy as it ever was, even though there are now several shopping malls in Windsor. In Windsor, there are plenty of nice big national chain grocery stores with lots of variety typical of any big city/big city suburb except that you can buy milk in a plastic bag in a Windsor grocery store. The biggest difference in Windsor is that its population keeps growing and it is closing in on getting to a quarter million people pretty soon. I expect that Windsor will have a larger population than Detroit in just a couple more decades. I was at Windsor lately, and it is still a nice town,totally unlike Detroit on the other side of the river. It is hard to visualize, remember, that barely 60 years ago Windsor and Detroit were quite similar, had comparable crime rates, and the same jobs available. Windsor was very much tied to the auto industry 60 years ago just like Detroit, Windsor had the same loss of auto jobs as Detroit, yet, Windsor today does not look like a bombed out city. There is no\*\* inherent\*\* reason why Detroit became a garbage pit while on the other side of the river the sister city of Windsor just kept on truckin. Detroit did not decline because of the change in the auto industry, nor because of the automobile, nor because of global warming, nor because of the tooth fairy. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/93 "2011-03-24T17:14:29Z")
Originally Posted by Susanann > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Sure, all we need is a gigantic police budget. We’ll just raise taxes on the 1.8 million people… > That doesn’t leave much revenue to pay for _anything,_ let alone a massive police presence. There is no reason to have a “massive” police force, nor have a massive police budget. I dont know how much we spent on police in\*\* 1955\*\*, or how many officers we had, but certainly all Detroit needs now is maybe half of what it had and what it spent in 1950, since Detroit is now half the population it was. In the early 1950’s, Detroit was a reasonably safe city, and going back to that, going back to what it was then, is a reasonable, quick, easy, attainable goal. Somebody needs to find out how many police officers Detroit had in the early 1950’s, and start from there. . ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/94 "2011-03-24T17:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Detroit did not decline because of the change in the auto industry Wishful thinking > [@](#): > > In the 1950s the Detroit area had the highest median income, and highest rate of home ownership, of any major US city. But times are very different now. > > GM, under pressure from its competitors, is no longer making money in the American car market - and it has been closing plants all across Flint. > > GM WORKER’S VIEW > Claire McClinton, GM worker > We thought we were living the American Dream > Claire McClinton, third generation GM autoworker, Flint, Michigan > > Now there are only 6,000 GM workers in Flint, compared to 100,000 at the peak, and the town and workers are suffering. > > “Flint has the highest rate of unemployment, poverty and homelessness in Michigan,” Claire told me. > **[BBC NEWS | Business | The decline of Detroit](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6346299.stm)** > > Globalisation affects all of us - but there have been few more dramatic changes than the decline of the US car makers. > [@](#): > > Windsor was very much tied to the auto industry 60 years ago just like Detroit, Windsor had the same loss of auto jobs as Detroit What happened in Flint is what happened in DEtroit. I seriously doubt that Windsor lost 94% of its jobs. I suspect they weren’t as reliant on autos as Detroit, didn’t shift sas many of their autoi jobs elsewhere, and diversified to account for lost jobs. I suspect Detroit should have done more of this, but it was built on auto manufacturing, and dson’t know how practical that would have been, or how fast it could have been done. But **Susanann** ’s optimism for quick solutions seems more like Pollyann. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/95 "2011-03-24T17:31:49Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Originally Posted by Susanann > > There is no reason to have a “massive” police force, nor have a massive police budget. I dont know how much we spent on police in\*\* 1955\*\*, or how many officers we had, but certainly all Detroit needs now is maybe half of what it had and what it spent in 1950, since Detroit is now half the population it was. In the early 1950’s, Detroit was a reasonably safe city, and going back to that, going back to what it was then, is a reasonable, quick, easy, attainable goal. > > Somebody needs to find out how many police officers Detroit had in the early 1950’s, and start from there. > . As noted in my previous post, the tax revenue _just isn’t there_ to fund an appropriately-sized police force. The city is paying to maintain an infrastructure that is sized for 1.8 million people, but only 713K taxpayers are providing money for it, and many of the biggest corporate taxpayers are gone. The revenue-to-population ratio is less than what it used to be, and the infrastructure-cost-to-population ratio is higher than what it used to be. Effective policing over such a large area will require a larger police-to-population ratio than would have been needed in 1955. As far as the Windsor/Detroit economic comparison goes, here’s two points: [Windsor’s economy:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor,_Ontario#Economy) education, manufacturing, tourism, government services, pharmaceuticals, alt energy, insurance, and IT. [Detroit’s economy:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit,_MI#Economy) difficult to parse from the text, but one gets the impression that Detroit’s economy is much more closely tied to the automotive industry (and manufacturing in general) than that of Windsor. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/96 "2011-03-24T17:34:10Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > But **Susanann** ’s optimism for quick solutions seems more like Pollyann. I believe the phrase you’re looking for is [“let them eat cake.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake) ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/97 "2011-03-24T18:00:48Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Wow. Only 40% of the people that once lived here. And the properties that are still occupied have decreased in value so much that they’re not generating nearly the property tax revenue they once did. > > Shoot, we’re stuck paying to maintain all of these roads, and sewer systems, and water systems, over this massive area, with a fraction of the population we used to have, and a fraction of the commercial businesses we used to have. That doesn’t leave much revenue to pay for _anything,_ let alone a massive police presence. The bloody OBVIOUS answer is to eliminate inherent government waste, there is no revenue problem, there is a spending problem. Everywhere. WASTE!!! ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/98 "2011-03-24T18:41:21Z")
I worked in Pittsburgh for a couple of years in the late 80s after the steel industry went belly up. One almost immediate change for the better was the demolition of all of the old steel factories along the 3 rivers. Sure people complained about lost of history and lamented that the jobs just may return if we wished hard enough, but they knuckled down and just did it. While still not vibrant compared to many places,Pittsburgh is and has been decent for awhile now. I think of this everytime I see that damn old Packard plant still there. But then Pittsburgh did not have to deal with the likes of Kwayme Kilpatrick either ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/99 "2011-03-24T18:54:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe the phrase you’re looking for is “let them eat cake.” Not at all. Why would you say that? The phrase is completely inappropriate. Whereas the reference to Polyanna is perfectly justified > [@](#): > > Pollyanna’s philosophy of life centers on what she calls “The Glad Game”, an optimistic attitude she learned from her father. The game consists of finding something to be glad about in every situation. > > … > > It is sometimes used pejoratively, referring to someone whose optimism is excessive to the point of naïveté or refusing to accept the facts of an unfortunate situation. > **[Pollyanna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna)** > > Pollyanna is a 1913 novel by American author Eleanor H. Porter, considered a classic of children's literature. The book's success led to Porter soon writing a sequel, Pollyanna Grows Up (1915). Eleven more Pollyanna sequels, known as "Glad Books", were later published, most of them written by Elizabeth Borton or Harriet Lummis Smith. Further sequels followed, including Pollyanna Plays the Game by Colleen L. Reece, published in 1997. Due to the book's fame, "Pollyanna" has become a byword for so... ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485/100 "2011-03-24T19:03:21Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > The bloody OBVIOUS answer is to eliminate inherent government waste, there is no revenue problem, there is a spending problem. > > Everywhere. WASTE!!! Sorry, too simplistic. Government is not always an enemy. It has always surprised me that Americans, of all people, have so strongly latched on to this philosophy, because their government is nothing more than an extension of themselves. Furthermore, a lot of the waste that crusaders like to complain about in government is, in my opinion, found in _any_ large organization. Have you ever worked for a large corporation? They have as much bureaucracy as any government ministry. Now, in the case of Detroit, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they need to reduce spending to the level that their tax base can support, perhaps by concentrating the city into a smaller area and abandoning unneeded infrastructure. And in this case, maybe they need to trim their management structure to fin the new situation. But that’s not a problem of government in general; it’s a problem of Detroit in particular. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroit-dopers-why-all-the-burned-out-homes/575485.md?page=6)