# Detroit's present, our future **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088 "2013-08-01T16:44:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/41 "2013-08-14T14:24:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, that’s mainly because Duval-Jax has consolidated city-county government and there’s a lot of unbuilt countryside within the city limits. A lot of unbuilt swamps. And a lot of BUILT swamps. It is Florida, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/42 "2013-08-22T17:03:47Z")
The Detroit Public Lighting Department which provided low-cost electricity to Wayne State, RenCen, Cobo Hall, and to the Detroit Public Schools [has been shut down](http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/detroit-public-lighting-department-to-be-phased-out-emergency-manager-orr-tells-dte-energy), but never fear, the private industry (DTE) will take over operations with new and improved prices! Revenue Sharing from 2009 - 2013: 2009: $268.95 million 2010: $239.21 million 2011: $239.21 million (no change) 2012: $172.53 million 2013: $181.86 million (Projected) Keep in mind, this is for a city with a budget of $3.1 billion dollars. The $68 million reduction was done to manufacture the current crisis: Keep reducing aid over the decade, squeezing the city until it pops like a pustule. To put this in perspective, next year, the U.S government will give Columbia $323 million dollars while only giving Detroit 108.2 million grant _only_ for blight reduction. This year, we’ve increased our aid to Israel to an all-time high of [$3.2 billion](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf)while, at the same time, decreasing the amount of money we give our own American cities by millions of dollars. It is theft, pure and simple: stealing from the poorest of our own country to enrich the richest of an already prosperous country. If Mr. Snyder gave a damn about the lighting situation in Detroit, he would’ve provided the funds to the Department to replace stolen copper wires and light fixtures. It’s a damn shame that Jimmy Carter has such a terrible reputation because he’s the last President to have any inkling on what urban renewal was. If you believe that federal money gets “wasted in Detroit”, please, please, please, I invite you to visit Cobo Hall, the Renaissance Center, Hart Plaza, and Joe Louis Arena - all were built thanks to direct federal investment; in fact, the inner core of Downtown Detroit as well as the New Center owe their high property values to Mr. Carter. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/43 "2013-08-22T17:09:02Z")
and the People Mover! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/44 "2013-08-22T19:27:41Z")
One long-term solution to the pension problem mentioned by the OP is to go to Defined Contribution plans for public servants, instead of Defined Benefit plans. DC plans do not contain any future payments; they’re pay-as-you-go. The employer makes the contribution with each pay cheque, not 20 or 30 years in the future, and has no ongoing obligation. Switching to DC plans for all new hires does not address the current issue, but it also doesn’t affect the vested pension rights of former employees on the DB plans, a valid concern mentioned by **Honesty**. The switch could be imposed prospectively by the state governments on municipal governments, by requiring them to go to DC plans by a certain date for all new hires. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/45 "2013-08-22T21:00:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I don’t have the time or talent to research **Honesty** ’s charges, but have enough sense of American politics to realize that, even if they’re exaggerated, they probably contain much truth. _ **This is a hideous demonstration of the corrupt politics which are so prevalent today** _, and which vested interests use to exacerbate the gap between rich and poor. > > Yet no one in the thread even addressed **Honesty** ’s remarks, whether to support them, or to offer evidence in rebuttal. This is a remarkable comment. You yourself don’t have the time or talent to research Honesty’s charges, but yet you try to make a point out of the fact that other people have not addressed his comments. Have you considered that perhaps other people, much like you, don’t have the time or talent to look into them? Or perhaps your point is that in your case, despite admittedly not having actually looked into the facts, you still decided to post in support of Honesty’s comments anyway. So you have this expectation that other similarly ignoarant people should have rushed in to post their own ignorant opinions, as you did, and the fact that they haven’t done this proves that they’re ignoring the important issues of the day. But maybe that’s not it. By odd coincidence, you currently have a Pit thread in which you castigate someone else for posting about a subject that he was ignorant of. So perhaps the other posters here are doing as you say, not as you do. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/46 "2013-08-22T21:24:36Z")
I’m with **Fotheringay-Phipps**. The claims that Detroit was deprived of $200 million of promised revenue by the State of Michigan sounds interesting. I’d be happy to read the reliable source for that claim, if there was one. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/47 "2013-08-22T23:27:13Z")
> [@David\_H\_Singanas](#): > > Ralph124c, > > Not to worry. Obama is “too smart to basil out Detriot,” > as they say in Washington. > > Sir Honesty has the best policy. He is the only poster who calls it a race problem. > First the white democrats overspend and sanction lunatic pension plans for city > employees. Then the economy implodes in a great recession, and then there is > white flight. > > Look overseas for your answer. When Robert Mugabe took power in Zimbabwe > (actually Rhodesia), the president of Mozambique (Samora Machel) warned him > “Don’t lose your whites.” Did Doctor Mugabe listen? No. He did everything in his > power to encourage white flight. Look at Zimbabwe today. It’s Robert Mugabe’s > corpse in a coffin. > > This president of the US has roots in Africa. He is smart enough to know that > Detriot signed its death warrant when the great white wave of flight took wing. > Who knows? Next it might be California that will have a white migration. **Argent Towers** , is that you??? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/48 "2013-08-22T23:35:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m with **Fotheringay-Phipps**. The claims that Detroit was deprived of $200 million of promised revenue by the State of Michigan sounds interesting. I’d be happy to read the reliable source for that claim, if there was one. Absolutely, you only have to ask guys. 🙂 Source [#1](http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4189546518.PDF) > [@](#): > > \ > Specifically, Section 13(6) of the Public Act 532 of 1998 called for the State of Michigan to appropriate to the City of Detroit $333.9 million > in revenue sharing each state fiscal year from October 1, 1998 through June 30, 2007. The only way the State of Michigan was to pay the City of Detroit a revenue sharing allocation less than $339 million was if there was a state fiscal year which state sales tax collections totaled less than immediately preceding state fiscal year. > > \ > > This legislation was tie-barred reciprocally to another measure that became Public Act 500 of 1998. . … It mandated the City of Detroit roll back its resident and non-resident income tax rates from 3% to 2% and 2% and 1.5%, respectively. The reductions were to occur over a period of 10 years, starting July 1, 199, but could be suspended in any year that the City of Detroit met three of four adverse economic conditions. > > \ > > During the State’s 2002-03 fiscal year, former Governor John Engler cut revenue sharing by $11,686,500 citing as justification the state’s growing fiscal crisis and the fact that all other locals were being cut,too. Governor Jennifer Granholm took office in January 2004, in the midst of the 2002-03 fiscal year and ongoing financial duress, and initiated further cuts to locals’ revenue sharing, including a reduction of another $2,471,422 to the City of Detroit. The Michigan Legislature again cut City of Detroit revenue sharing in its 2003-04 fiscal year, this time by $46,530,912. > > \ > > . . . Governor Granholm, in January 2004, acted administratively to free Detroit from its obligation to roll back its income tax rates, noting that the city had, indeed, met three of the four adverse economic conditions spelled out in Public ACt 500 of 1998. This, in effect, marked the end of the 1998 compromise between the State of Michigan and the City of Detroit on revenue sharing because both parties were released from their respective obligations. The Detroit tax rates were rolled back but they never received the money, in fact, because the deal between Archer and Engler wasn’t written into the actual law, there was nothing the City could do legally to compel the State to give those promised funds. [Source #2](http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/03/a_220m_question_why_doesnt_det.html) > [@](#): > > Back in 1997, then-Governor John Engler and then-Mayor Dennis Archer struck a deal to ensure Detroit received guaranteed fixed revenue sharing payments. In exchange, the city agreed to gradually lower its income tax from 3% to 2% over ten years. > > \ > > So, does the state of Michigan owe the city of Detroit $220 million? Absent a court case, it may be a question without an answer. Source: [#3](http://www.freep.com/article/20130318/OPINION05/130318051/Inside-handshake-deal-state-haunts-Detroit-analysis-by-Bridge-Magazine-) > [@](#): > > “The state of Michigan broke its promise to Detroit,” says Kenneth Cole, the city’s longtime lobbyist. > > Cole says Detroit lost $220 million worth of revenue sharing, plus $433 million to $508 million in income tax it wasn’t allowed to collect. > > “No reasonable person can deny the impact this 1998 deal had on Detroit and its ability to deliver essential city services,” Cole added. “Why should Detroit again entrust its future to the state of Michigan?” If you or anyone else need anymore cites on this issue (or any other issue I brought up in my posts), please ask. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/49 "2013-08-23T05:06:37Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I’ll bet a cool million that in America a higher percentage of private businesses went bankrupt in the past 20 years than city governments did. > > If only we had businesses that operate more like governments do… You mean businesses that monopolize vital services and choose the amount of revenue they take from “customers” and anyone else they want? Governments don’t go broke because they can tax (legally extort) funds at will. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/50 "2013-08-23T05:51:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a remarkable comment. > > You yourself don’t have the time or talent to research Honesty’s charges, but yet you try to make a point out of the fact that other people have not addressed his comments. Have you considered that perhaps other people, much like you, don’t have the time or talent to look into them? > > Or perhaps your point is that in your case, despite admittedly not having actually looked into the facts, you still decided to post in support of Honesty’s comments anyway. So you have this expectation that other similarly ignoarant people should have rushed in to post their own ignorant opinions, as you did, and the fact that they haven’t done this proves that they’re ignoring the important issues of the day. > > But maybe that’s not it. By odd coincidence, you currently have a Pit thread in which you castigate someone else for posting about a subject that he was ignorant of. So perhaps the other posters here are doing as you say, not as you do. Wow!!! Your comment is invalid in almost every particular. 1. I specifically admitted ignorance up-front. That’s rather the opposite of pretending expertise I do not have. 2. I do spend quite a bit of time reading books and Googling, both for my own projects and in order to make informed posts at SDMB. But there are only 24 hours in a day. 3. **Honesty** ’s charges were quite specific. If they were false, I’d have expected to have seen them easily refuted. If unrefuted, I’d expect Dopers to get curious. I can point to several SDMB threads where I’ve invested time to fight ignorance. Is it so much to plead for other Dopers to pick up the slack? 4. Independent of the specific charges in this case, there is a general world-wide problem of similar corruption. This is “well known,” yet I think many people, even Dopers, are unaware of the extent of the problem. 5. Individuals generally lack the time to develop arguments from primary sources. That’s why the best answer to, or an observation on, a question is often to just point, as I did, to books by Chomsky or Naomi Klein. 6. With experience one gets an ear for the “ring of truth.” I’ll say no more on that topic as detractors would find much to ridicule in any summary of that other than a very long essay. Do you read Chomsky or Klein, **Fotheringay-Phipps**? Frankly I think it’s silly the way Dopers study each others’ posts for elisions or misplaced commas, but lack the time to inform themselves reading the informed books of worthy writers. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/51 "2013-08-23T13:49:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 1. I specifically admitted ignorance up-front. That’s rather the opposite of pretending expertise I do not have. If you’re claiming you nonetheless have the ability to determine the validity of these things, then it’s very similar. > [@](#): > > 1. I do spend quite a bit of time reading books and Googling, both for my own projects and in order to make informed posts at SDMB. But there are only 24 hours in a day. In that case you should have a lot of things that you can post about in an informed manner, and can afford to leave aside those about which you know little or nothing. > [@](#): > > 1. **Honesty** ’s charges were quite specific. If they were false, I’d have expected to have seen them easily refuted. If unrefuted, I’d expect Dopers to get curious. I can point to several SDMB threads where I’ve invested time to fight ignorance. Is it so much to plead for other Dopers to pick up the slack? Quite possibly it is. Relatively few Dopers have paid much attention to the details of Detroit’s fiscal history. (In addition, it’s possible that people are used to these types of posts from Honesty, and don’t pay much attention to begin with.) > [@](#): > > 1. Independent of the specific charges in this case, there is a general world-wide problem of similar corruption. This is “well known,” yet I think many people, even Dopers, are unaware of the extent of the problem. I agree with your first clause - it’s independent of the specific charges in this case. What we are discussing here is the specific charges in this case. > [@](#): > > 1. Individuals generally lack the time to develop arguments from primary sources. That’s why the best answer to, or an observation on, a question is often to just point, as I did, to books by Chomsky or Naomi Klein. Or to people like George Will et al. 🙂 > [@](#): > > 1. With experience one gets an ear for the “ring of truth.” I’ll say no more on that topic as detractors would find much to ridicule in any summary of that other than a very long essay. I would be one of those detractors. An “ear for the rign of truth” just means “fits in with my general worldview and preconceived notions”. > [@](#): > > Do you read Chomsky or Klein, **Fotheringay-Phipps**? I once read a book by Chomsky (& my opinion of him on that basis is not high). Never heard of Klein. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/52 "2013-08-23T14:37:50Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Governments don’t go broke because they can tax (legally extort) funds at will. Exactly. This wasn’t the first time Detroit faced a fiscal crisis; for example, in [1981](http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1981/eirv08n10-19810310/eirv08n10-19810310_021-a_postindustrial_detroit.pdf), the City of Detroit faced a $131 million deficit, had already laid off nearly five thousand city workers in all departments from 1975. The state-appointed arbiter was clamoring for a state-takeover unless the City independently enacted three reforms: tax increases, short-term borrowing, and employee wage concessions. The City did the last two, but the first one was difficult as the Michigan constitution requires voters to approve of all taxes increases. And you know what? The voters overwhelmingly voted (68.8%) for a tax increase, and you know what happened two years after that? The City of Detroit posted a surplus and, you know what happened at the end of the 80’s? The City balanced five consecutive budgets. The title of the OP is very apt because what occurs in Detroit will occur to a City near you. Let me explain, though I fear another Pit thread may emerge because of it. The U.S government would engage what’s called federal revenue sharing, the federal government would give money to towns and cities to spend as they saw fit (sort of how we give away our money to other countries). Well, by the mid 80’s, Republicans knew that their tax increases weren’t generating revenue, so they began to cut some more to obfuscate an increasing peacetime deficit. By 1986, the Reagan administration shut down the federal revenue sharing program; while, at the same time, pulling back on urban programs and trimming the welfare rolls. This is a cyclical problem because as federal aid is withdrawn the people in need must rely on State and local governments which may or may not be equipped provide that need. When the State coffers dries up, the people in need rely on their towns and cities, and when that dries up, they go to the municipal bond market, and when that dries up or your bonds are degraded to junk status, your city is [appraised and auctioned off piece-by-piece](http://www.freep.com/article/20130805/ENT05/308050114/dia-art-christie-s-detroit-bankruptcy) to corporations to pay off the debt. Unfortunately, what majority does not understand is the promotion of the “general Welfare” of Americans is the constitutional job of the U.S government, not the States, towns, cities, and the municipal bond market. It should be the reason we pay taxes. I have several books in Detroit and have been thumbing through them with great interest as of late. Came across this quote in regards to Public Act 312 from Mayor Young in his book _Hard Stuff_ written in 1994. Coleman surmised that “for its own financial stability and bond ratings, Michigan could not allow Detroit to fall into bankruptcy.” He continued: “Although from my point of view that would have been preferable to State control, which would effectively left Detroit without authority in its own affairs. Antipathy toward Detroit ran high in the State legislature, and I would loath to put my city’s fate into the hands of such a demonstrably unsympathetic body”. He must be turning over in his grave. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/53 "2013-08-23T14:49:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Quite possibly it is. Relatively few Dopers have paid much attention to the details of Detroit’s fiscal history. (In addition, it’s possible that people are used to these types of posts from Honesty, and don’t pay much attention to begin with.) That’s a cop-out, everything I’m saying I can provide a cite for it (and have _happily_ done so when asked). While some of my knowledge is from books about Detroit, everything needed to debate the issue is on the Internet. For example, nearly all of the fiscal data was obtained here, which is freely accessible to you or anyone else. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/54 "2013-08-23T15:22:07Z")
Detroit slips further into the post-apocalypse: [Abandoned Dogs Roam Detroit in Packs as Humans Dwindle](http://youtu.be/8oFUCO-XheQ) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/55 "2013-08-23T16:41:49Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > That’s a cop-out, everything I’m saying I can provide a cite for it (and have _happily_ done so when asked). While some of my knowledge is from books about Detroit, everything needed to debate the issue is on the Internet. For example, nearly all of the fiscal data was obtained here, which is freely accessible to you or anyone else. > > - Honesty You’re missing the context and point. If people were disputing what you’re saying then this would be relevant. But septimus was commenting on the fact that people are ignoring what you’re saying. My response was that perhaps people gloss over your posts, based on prior experience (especeially WRT race-related issues). As such, you can’t prove anything from the fact that no one has addressed your claims - one way or the other. The fact that you’re willing to document your claims is not relevant to this issue. FTR I’m not claiming that you’re wrong. I’m not willing to get involved in Detroit’s history at that level of detail. All I’m making is a logical point: the fact that people have not addressed your post might be because they haven’t really paid much attention to it. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/56 "2013-08-23T19:56:37Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Absolutely, you only have to ask guys. If the articles that you quoted from are correct, it seems the story is slightly different than the state merely robbing the city of promised money. The state and the city agreed to a deal whereby Detroit would reduce its income taxes, and in exchange for that the state would share a certain amount of revenue. The city cut taxes, but not as much as promised. In response, the state shared revenue, but not as much as promised. Not being a lawyer, I’m not going to comment and the legal status of what happened or whether the money should have been payed. But it’s not merely a case of the state grabbing the money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088/57 "2013-08-23T20:25:10Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Detroit slips further into the post-apocalypse: [Abandoned Dogs Roam Detroit in Packs as Humans Dwindle](http://youtu.be/8oFUCO-XheQ) Is the city too strapped to afford even a **dogcatcher** now?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/detroits-present-our-future/665088.md?page=2)