# Devaluation of "nimrod" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 28, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203 "2015-03-28T13:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/21 "2015-03-30T20:51:18Z")
Josephus wrote some negative things about Nimrod: > [@Josephus](#): > > Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it were through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to reach. And that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers. Pseudo-Philo, who was probably writing before the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD, describes Nimrod as an antagonist to Abraham. These stories are also found in the Talmud and in medieval Jewish and Islamic writings. This kind of elaboration on a character in the Torah is not uncommon in Jewish legends. If you read about Esau in the Torah, he doesn’t come off too badly. His name really gets blackened in later Jewish legend, probably to justify making Jacob the good guy even though he got the blessing by deceiving his father. Nimrod being not entirely a positive figure goes back a lot further than Bugs Bunny. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/22 "2015-03-30T22:29:17Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Nope; plenty of civilians like it too. > > There is the RAF Nimrod as well; retired in 2011. > [Hawker Siddeley Nimrod - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Nimrod) Named analogously with another aircraft with a hunter mission: The USN Lockheed [P-3 Orion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-3_Orion). Also named for a legendary hunter, and contemporaneous with the Nimrod. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/23 "2015-03-31T02:35:23Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Interestingly, although the biblical references to the name being a mighty hunter, the next appearances occur in English from the 1500’s-late 1600’s and refer to such characters as **tyrants**. > [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Josephus wrote some negative things about Nimrod: > > Pseudo-Philo, who was probably writing before the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD, describes Nimrod as an antagonist to Abraham. These stories are also found in the Talmud and in medieval Jewish and Islamic writings. > > This kind of elaboration on a character in the Torah is not uncommon in Jewish legends. If you read about Esau in the Torah, he doesn’t come off too badly. His name really gets blackened in later Jewish legend, probably to justify making Jacob the good guy even though he got the blessing by deceiving his father. > > Nimrod being not entirely a positive figure goes back a lot further than Bugs Bunny. So said **samclem** earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/24 "2015-03-31T03:03:13Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The Scottish philosopher [John Duns Scotus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus)’s work was well received during his life, but became heavily criticized later. Hence, the tradition of calling someone of apparent low intelligence a “dunce”. Cite? That sounds rather like an urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/25 "2015-03-31T04:34:37Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The Scottish philosopher [John Duns Scotus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus)’s work was well received during his life, but became heavily criticized later. Hence, the tradition of calling someone of apparent low intelligence a “dunce”. I don’t think Duns Scotus’ own work fell into disrepute, although at various times it did become more or less fashionable. But it was regarded as very subtle and sophisticated, and “Duns” was applied to anyone whose reasoning was subtle and sophisticated. In time it came to be applied to one whose argument was considered _too_ subtle and sophisticated - a hair-splitter, a sophist, a pedant. And then by about the sixteenth century it came to be applied ironically to one who was not subtle or sophisticated at all. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/26 "2015-03-31T13:24:02Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > So said **samclem** earlier. Josephus is a lot earlier than 1500s-1600s. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/27 "2015-03-31T13:44:29Z")
End of discussion: [http://assets.amuniversal.com/afc15890dec10131719a005056a9545d](http://assets.amuniversal.com/afc15890dec10131719a005056a9545d) ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/28 "2015-03-31T14:47:12Z")
For those not in the know, [here’s the “Nimrod” variation](https://youtu.be/SvA6FtN8-n0?t=12m58s) from Sir Edward Elgar’s Enigma Variations, Op. 36 (starting at 12:58.) It’s gorgeous and haunting, the emotional peak of the whole set of variations. I’m American and yes “nimrod” is an insult in the U.S., but for me “Nimrod” is Elgar’s music. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203/29 "2015-03-31T23:53:52Z")
I really think, without a doubt, it’s the Bugs Bunny thing. And the Elgar “Nimrod” variation for his friend Jaeger is weird because of it’s beautiful intense passion. The variation he wrote for his wife is trite in comparison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/devaluation-of-nimrod/716203.md?page=1)