I dunno. I’m not sure any age is too young to appeal to reason. It may not be effective, but if I say, “Daddy says no, for xyz reasons” - even if my kid doesn’t understand or appreciate the reasons I give, at least they understand that my choices/actions are not entirely arbitrary. And that forms a framework for them realizing they should have reasons for their actions - and good reasons that they can express and that will hold up to scrutiny.
And if they want to reject xyz, without offering alternatives, I have no qualms about falling back on “Because I’m the parent and I say so.”
Not sure how much of a role “bargaining” played in my parenting. To me, the concept implies a heck of a lot more equality in strength of position than existed between me and my minor children.
I think the problem is when parents insist on using reasoning and not recognising that it doesn’t work. Sometimes you simply have to say “no” and take the toy away as a simple cause/effect consequence of bad behaviour, or use a time out. Some parents don’t seem to want to do that on the basis that they want to bring their children up to be adults and don’t just want to say “because I said so”, but again it’s recognising the limits of what reasoning can do with a child that’s not developed enough to appreciate it.
But again I’ve seen people doing it, trying to negotiate their children to go to sleep or eat anything other than the really restrictive diet that a child has created for itself. Again it’s probably in a minority of cases, but it in those it’s employed it really doesn’t work.
On it’s face it looks like small Frylock’s conclusion goes the extra step and argues that the fact that it’s dark in his room proves that it is day outside (“And that means it’s daytime”), but if what he actually meant by that was “it could be daytime” (which he very well could have), then you’re right, that’s a valid argument.
Eiither way, that’s not a slam on his reasoning skills, mind you, that’s a pretty advanced argument and a pretty sharp three year old. Kids progress in logical thinking through “kid logic.” One of my favorite examples is a kid who was asked where the wind comes from and responded “the waving of the trees.” When asked where the wind on the ocean comes from, they said “the waves make it.” Both are perfectly reasonable hypotheses based on the information they have.
Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood your initial post to be referring to desireable parenting, rather than what is often done.
It often surprises me when parents act as tho exercising their parental responsibilities makes them the “bad guy.”
Sometimes you just have to say “no,” and tell - and show - the kid that that is your prerogative, and there isn’t much they can do about it until they are old enough to move out. Absent emotional problems on the kid’s part, they’l learn they don’t always get their way on everything, and eventually will realize your choices were made with their best interests at heart.
Oh GOD yes! The angst of some parents when their children cry after being told off or punished never ceases to amaze me. If you child reacts negatively to being punished then it means the punishment has worked. Children can’t decide what is in their best interests, that’s for parents to consider.
That said I’m not a great one for over authoritarian parenting, when your children start exercising the ability to think for themselves that should be encouraged and accommodated (my mother was a great proponent of that but not so much my father, unfortunately).
This past summer, Middlebro reported having spent a delightful 45 min having his first meaningful debate with his son, on the subject of “why is Daddy in charge” (apparently the final answer came up to “because Daddy makes the money that goes to pay for car, bedding, house, food et al; this is the same reason Mommy is in charge”). This took place in the tiny village his FiL was from, and after a few minutes they had a ring of onlookers.
The kid turned 3yo this same month. He’s been trying to reason things logically since he was old enough to string words in the right order. I think kids are actually very good at logic: the illogic of adults drives them nuts! Why was it ok to play on the floor five minutes ago, but not now?
He’s been bargaining like a mofo since before he could string sentences together, too. You make a deal with that kid, you better fulfill it!
I see what’s going on now. I thought the sentence meant “And [when that happens] that means it’s daytime,” while you thought it meant “And that means it is daytime [right here and now].”
In fact what I typed was a very loose paraphrase of what he said because what he actually said was something like
“But but but someti… sometimes there’s, uh, there’s, uh, there’s, uh, it’s light outside when, and, but, when, and, and, it’s inside the room, it’s uh, inside, it’s uh still, it’s dark but it’s light outside, and” etc etc.
So like I said, there is probably some charitable interpretation going on here. But what I meant when I paraphrased it as “and that means its daytime” is “And that would mean it would be daytime under such a circumstance.”
