“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.”
You could search through my 20,000 plus posts and look for times when I used the word, “cunt” and you won’t find one. I rarely (if ever) called mods out on anything. These changes didn’t affect me much personally, either, but they still aren’t right.
Oh yes please, do let’s trot out the old “you’re just pissed because you can’t say “cunt” in the Pit anymore” chestnut. For once and for all, can you people just fucking get off that? Here’s another dialogue that makes about as much sense as that:
“I can’t stand you any more, and I want a divorce.”
“You’re just mad because I didn’t rinse out my coffee cup, aren’t you?”
incoherent scream
Yeah, keep telling yourselves whatever moronic thing you need to tell yourselves that keeps your blinders in place as we keep telling you what the problem actually IS–if you’re having a problem actually picturing what it is, go read this thread. Go on, I’ll wait. READ IT. Read what Giraffe wrote, and what I wrote, and what scissorjack wrote, and what Lynn and Tuba wrote.
Yeah, it’s just about NOTBEINGABLETOSAYCUNTINTHEPIT, that must be it, no other explanation or actual plain, iterative statement could possibly have any relevance. Nothing to see here, move along. Nothing’s wrong son, look at the news. There are no problems here, merely eeeeeeevil trolling malcontents who spend time and effort and emotion to compose sentences and paragraphs making clear points detailing what they feel and why–which efforts are immediately dismissed and discounted and handwaved away in the most insulting manner possible. Yeah, thanks for that, and please do continue to be amazed and hurt when posters don’t necessarily fawn over every admin edict and moderator action–it’s so unfair when people don’t seem to give a shit about one’s efforts, isn’t it?
What a dreadful place the board you describe must be, I do feel for you, under the lash, day in, day out, at the mercy of brutal and heartless moderators. If only there were some means of escape!
I understand what you’re saying, Cat Whisperer, and I’m sure it’s a response to me saying that I don’t spend much time in the Pit.
But telling someone, “There are 470,000 words in the English language. We’d prefer you didn’t use these two” is hardly comparable to dragging the communists away to jail and executing them.
I did read the thread, SmartAleq. I’ll happily confess that I did not read all of the threads in the great meltdown, and I’ll even confess that there is a rule or two here on the Dope that I don’t agree with. But I have read every word of this thread.
If you look at your post that I was responding to, you were basically asking why the mods haven’t all walked out. My answer, quite simply, is that I don’t get worked into a lather over fairly minor stuff that I can’t change anyway.
I get that it’s not all about the word “cunt.” Would it be fair to say that the majority of the complaints center around (1) rule changes in the Pit, (2) moving discussions of moderation to ATMB, where you can’t personally insult the mods, and (3) not liking what some of us (mods & admins) have said or the “tone” (or maybe “attitude” is a better word) of our posts?
Speaking only for myself–as an explanation of why I haven’t “gone on strike” in a huff–#1 doesn’t affect me. As for #2, if you can’t communicate your displeasure over a mod comment or a mod decision without personal insults, maybe you’re taking it too seriously or getting too caught up in the heat of the moment.
So we’re down to #3. If that’s the issue, I can see why it might bother you sometimes, but I can’t see why you think it would make me and the other mods walk out en masse.
I’m sorry, but (incorrectly) paraphrasing our explanations and then explaining why they’re silly isn’t precisely proof that you’re understanding. It isn’t that ‘it isn’t all about the word cunt.’ It isn’t about the word ‘cunt’ at all. As has been said at least twice here: the word ‘cunt’ does not enter into it. Continuing to insist that it does is to ignore the actual issue.
The actual issue…and, y’know…I’m going to put this in red, just to make sure your eyes don’t gloss over it again, is this:
When Ed decided to outlaw certain words in the Pit, that was not all he did. He decreed that from that moment forward, moderators could not be treated as other posters by refusing to allow us to express ourselves as one poster to another in the strongest possible terms. Even though moderators started as posters and to posters they will return. Even though we are able to decry the actions of high ranking public officials, celebrities and each other…the mods are beyond any but the most civil, respectful discourse. The moderators and admins, however, are not likewise restrained in their ability to use whatever language and mode of speech they deem fitting when addressing posters. It is to this rule that our then-Pit moderator objected, and left over. It is this rule to which many of us still object. It is this rule that has created an ever deepening trench of ‘us and them,’ which continues its destructive path to this thread, and it is to this rule that most of us thought (until you voiced the face-slappingly insulting opinion ‘why should I care?’) that many of the mods may well still object. Obviously we were wrong. So long as you don’t get pitted, what difference does it make?
As for the ‘cunt’ rule? It was merely the most absurd codicil of an egregiously wrong headed policy change. As a result, it has become the punch line of a bad joke that is Pit policy. ‘Call someone the deranged blabbering unsucessful abortion of a $2 whore, but whatever you do, DON’T call them a cunt!’ None of us actually believed for a second you would buy into the stupid idea that we would leave en masse over a word.
As to the rest: #2 is quite simply incorrect. It not only misrepresents several posters’ desire for a level playing field, it underreports how frequently posters are insulted by moderators in ATMB with no ability to respond in kind.
More: (2) moving discussions of moderation from the Pit to ATMB has given the mods an unfair advantage which has been exploited to the point of simply locking threads and forbidding further discussion after adding their own condescending and insulting posts. In addition, it clutters ATMB with threads about moderator/admin actions when it should be purposed for the actual discussion of how the message board is or should be used and maintained.
Hope that clears things up, but I’m not terribly optimistic that it will.
Quoted for truth. Hopefully, a mod or admin will read it and not come away with the notion that it says “I hate this board” or “I wish I could say cunt in the Pit”. But then, hope springs eternal.
I would add #4 - Sooner or later, no matter what you complain about, or how justified the complaint, a mod will be along to tell you that you are just causing trouble, it is only because you hate the mods, and you should just shut up and go away.
I carefully read what you put in red, and I really don’t see the huge disconnect between what I wrote and what you’re saying. Let’s give this another shot.
I understand that people are upset about what I called #3: “not liking what some of us (mods & admins) have said or the ‘tone’ (or maybe ‘attitude’ is a better word) of our posts?” I also understand that people are upset that criticism of moderating has been moved to ATMB, where you can poke a moderator or admin until he says “you’re an idiot,” but you can’t respond with “you’re an idiot, too.”
(Note that you are absolutely allowed to insult moderators. You could open a Pit thread right this moment which consisted solely of insults to my personality, politics, looks, debating skills, and intelligence. Nothing forbids that. The rule says that moderating decisions–as opposed to the moderators that make them–are to be discussed in ATMB.)
I did not come into this thread to apologize for anyone else’s actions, nor to defend anyone else. I have no desire to get in the middle of a tiff between Giraffe and Dex, or between TubaDiva and wring. They’re grownups and they can work it out without me.
I came in solely because SmartAleq said that she couldn’t figure out why all the mods hadn’t “gone out on strike.” I answered that question. I may have the word “moderator” under my name, but the overwhelming majority of the time I spend on the Straight Dope is just being a member, as I did for five years before I became a mod. I enjoy this place, and I’m not going to scream bloody murder every time the boss makes a decision I don’t like or every time someone gets yelled at. That’s why I haven’t “gone on strike.”
As an aside:
My “tempest in a teapot” remark probably sounded like I was belittling something that clearly makes a big difference to you. I apologize for that. I was indicating that from my perspective the huge furor that arose over the rule changes was rooted in something that seemed minor to me.
And his lack of forbidding it has been inferred as consent. Honestly, Arnold, just because he didn’t say it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been happening. Opening any number of threads in ATMB backs that up. Do you really require a citation?
But go ahead and pretend there’s no disconnect between what I posted and the sidestep with which you countered.
Is not what I said. No. I’m sorry, but it is not about ‘poking’ a moderator into insulting a poster for the gratification of being able to insult them back. Without provocation, both Lynn and Tuba insulted wring in this thread. After two posts over the course of 8 months that were far more respectful than I am being. What part of that was ‘poking’ those administrators til they cracked? I’m sorry, but it can’t always be the posters’ fault. Mods and admins are human; they make mistakes.
Until you accept that some of those mistakes ARE being made in this forum without provocation, then there will continue to be a disconnect. Just like the qualifier “I know it isn’t all about saying cunt…” because you just can’t bring yourself to accept it isn’t in there somewhere. It MUST be about being insulting.
As a poster, I have no issue with that opinion. I’m sure plenty of posters here share it. Different strokes. As a moderator, though, you speak on behalf of the board and it sounds dismissive to those who are trying to convey what they see as a serious issue.
I’m sure I’m biased, but I can’t recall any threads where I thought that the moderators were being much worse to the posters than the posters were being towards the moderators. I have seen comments directed by moderators towards posters that, IMHO, would have been seen in another forum, directed by one poster towards another, without any moderator warnings whatsoever.
ETA: I see in your post immediately preceding mine you mention Lynn and Tuba “insulting” wring in this thread.
How would you then characterize these comments by posters, directed at the staff?
More so, care to show where I’ve insulted staff in 9 years, therefore deserving the comments made to me here? I’ve disagreed w/staff rarely. until recently and definately did not deserve the insulting accusations made by admins in this thread.
Frustration. While it cannot be easy to hear or read such posts, I can honestly say that were those posters made to feel their concerns were actually being listened to, the level of said frustration would reduce drastically. Respect is not demanded, Arnold. It is earned. Is there a reason anyone should show respect to a person that gives them nothing but disdain?
I don’t expect you to change your mind, but would it kill you to try to listen without inferring the worst possible intentions?
I didn’t say either of those were yours. And I’m not intending to try and review statements and determine which of those are deserved and which aren’t. For the record, I think that some of the statements made by moderators to posters were undeserved, and by the same token, some of the statements made by posters to moderators were undeserved.
The examples were intended to prove this point: Syntropy said (paraphrasing) the moderators are allowed to be mean to the posters in ATMB, the posters are not allowed to do the same. I disagree with Syntropy. From my reading, what the moderators say to posters is not any worse than the kind of stuff that the posters say to moderators.
See my previous post. I am not judging motives behind statements here. I am citing those posts as counterexamples to your statement that moderators are allowed to talk to posters using worse language than posters are allowed when talking to moderators.
I am not inferring the worst possible intentions on anybody’s part - posters or moderators.
Lynn’s post is a prime example of an adversarial post. Scissorack wrote in a polite, conciliatory - even tender - tone. How Lynn interpreted that in the way she did is beyond me.
And just as an aside, I think that it’s ironic that since Ed banned the word ‘cunt’, it’s probably been used more often here in ATMB than it ever was in the Pit.
TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni: why respond to anger with anger? What does it solve?
Various posters: What good does it do to come out and complain?
What do any of you think you are going to solve? This conflict is the same as the one you had 8 months ago. What do you think you will accomplish? You’ve already discussed this, and found you can’t agree.
At some point you have to face reality. Neither side is going to change. Or, at least, they aren’t if you are going to keep approaching the problem the same way.
Dex, Wombat, and Giraffe have remained perfectly civil, so I know it’s possible. They are people with level heads that actually have a record of resolving things amicably–let them handle it, if you can’t avoid getting emotionally involved.
Mods. you have the banhammer if somebody is truly breaking the rules. Everyone else can stick with the forums that do not bother them. What’s the point of complaining when you have the resources to take care of the problem yourselves? At some point you have to what you can, let go of the rest, and go your separate ways.
Absolutely. Drop the ban hammer and proceed to the echo chamber.
BigT, I would like to think that both sides are willing to see each others’ point of view without the scorched earth policy. Ignoring the problems and pretending they don’t exist really doesn’t solve anything. And why should Giraffe, Wombat, SmartAleq or anyone else for that matter be forced into the role of speaking for anyone but themselves?
It’s nice that you want everyone to get along. Unfortunately, adults don’t always agree. Sometimes there are disagreements and sometimes those disagreements get heated. Reasonable people can work through the heat if they feel there’s an end goal worth reaching with the other party. I personally do. I believe everyone here does as well, else why would they bother to continue to respond? If it bothers you that much to read, perhaps you should stick to the fora and threads about happier subjects.