# Dex, we're very unclear **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855 "2006-02-16T19:50:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/161 "2006-02-21T16:18:58Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I read your last post with great interest. I don’t have the vocabulary to make understanding it very easy, unfortunately, but if such a thread appears in CS, I’d certainly follow along as well as I could. I should have taken the time to define all of the terms I used, and I will happily explain any (to the best of my ability, which is limited) that are baffling. I just assume that “Ask the metrical poet” would be a freaking short thread! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/162 "2006-02-21T16:40:01Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > **PRR** , something for you to ponder, as you continue to dig your hole to China: I’ve had to move you from a column labeled “_Dopers worthy of a certain degree of deferential respect in certain areas of discussion; when in doubt, defer_,” to “_Dopers who are more concerned with being an asshole than in productive participation in serious discussion; when in doubt, ignore_.” > > This thread has cost you a lot. A LOT. You have a very long journey ahead of you to return to the place you were when Dex admonished you from the cave you’ve dug yourself into. And still you dig, away from the light. With your every post, I find myself doubting that you’re a teacher; that you have EVER been a teacher; that you’re even a student; that you’re even a grownup. > > Now, obviously I can only speak for myself. But judging from the rest of this thread, I doubt my experience is unique. Triple double ditto minus zero no limit. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/163 "2006-02-21T16:40:49Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > **PRR** , something for you to ponder, as you continue to dig your hole to China: I’ve had to move you from a column labeled “_Dopers worthy of a certain degree of deferential respect in certain areas of discussion; when in doubt, defer_,” to “_Dopers who are more concerned with being an asshole than in productive participation in serious discussion; when in doubt, ignore_.” > > This thread has cost you a lot. A LOT. You have a very long journey ahead of you to return to the place you were when Dex admonished you from the cave you’ve dug yourself into. And still you dig, away from the light. With your every post, I find myself doubting that you’re a teacher; that you have EVER been a teacher; that you’re even a student; that you’re even a grownup. > > Now, obviously I can only speak for myself. But judging from the rest of this thread, I doubt my experience is unique. Yet these are factual things, which have a right and wrong answer to them. If we were to pursue them, and if you were shown to be factually wrong (as you would be), then what does that say about YOUR judgment? I’ve made no claims for myself as a so-called expert here, other than being relatively expert in the context of my fellow Dopers, and have provided some reasons why I hold that view of my relative expertise, but mainly I’ve stated that I acknowledge freely the wisdom of others whose expertise I rely on in metrical matters. It seems to me that others are more interested in setting me as a strawman to bash, claiming that my own reasons for thinking I know this stuff, which I fully expect to be of no probative value to anyone outside my own skin, are attempts to argue from the authority of being a teacher, a poet, or any sort of authority. I’m certainly not basing the arguments I make here on my “authority”–references to my stature, or lack of stature, IRL, are obviously anecdotal on my part, placing in context why I think as I do, but entirely to be disregarded as a basis of persuasion. Yet people persist in bashing that strawman. Look at yourself: you don’t think I’m a teacher? That’s cool with me. You don’t think I’ver ever been to school? Um, okay. You think I’m a child? When I made this very point, in my hyperbolic post a page or so back, claiming that people wouldn’t be satisifed even if I admitted being a lucky monkey typing English sentences by blind chance, Daniel called that “pathetic.” Which it was, if I were not deliberately burlesqueing the positions that others have taken here. You seem to be taking that position seriously here. I’m not sure how to take your tone. Do you really think I’m a child? Do you really doubt I’m a professor? More important, why does it matter? I’m not basing any of this argument on my so-called “authority.” I’ve found out some things I didn’t know–the absolute requirement in CS for displaying a high level of deference and extreme decorum in the face of arrant ignorance–and consider this whole long thread to have been well worth the posting. As to what it has “cost” me–I’m willing to pay almost any price, and to take almost any ass-whupping, in exchange for being edified. If you teach me something, but lose all respect for me in the process, I’m ahead of the game, and I thank you for your efforts in teaching me. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/164 "2006-02-21T16:52:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I just assume that “Ask the metrical poet” would be a freaking short thread! 😃 Well, your post about alternate readings of the line was interesting and enlightening, and your efforts in getting other expert opinions went above and beyond the call, so thank you much! **pseud**. Dude. You _so_ need to get laid. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/165 "2006-02-21T17:08:15Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > Yet these are factual things, which have a right and wrong answer to them. If we were to pursue them, and if you were shown to be factually wrong (as you would be), then what does that say about YOUR judgment? I’ve made no claims for myself as a so-called expert here, other than being relatively expert in the context of my fellow Dopers, and have provided some reasons why I hold that view of my relative expertise, but mainly I’ve stated that I acknowledge freely the wisdom of others whose expertise I rely on in metrical matters. It seems to me that others are more interested in setting me as a strawman to bash, claiming that my own reasons for thinking I know this stuff, which I fully expect to be of no probative value to anyone outside my own skin, are attempts to argue from the authority of being a teacher, a poet, or any sort of authority. I’m certainly not basing the arguments I make here on my “authority”–references to my stature, or lack of stature, IRL, are obviously anecdotal on my part, placing in context why I think as I do, but entirely to be disregarded as a basis of persuasion. > > Yet people persist in bashing that strawman. Look at yourself: you don’t think I’m a teacher? That’s cool with me. You don’t think I’ver ever been to school? Um, okay. You think I’m a child? When I made this very point, in my hyperbolic post a page or so back, claiming that people wouldn’t be satisifed even if I admitted being a lucky monkey typing English sentences by blind chance, Daniel called that “pathetic.” Which it was, if I were not deliberately burlesqueing the positions that others have taken here. You seem to be taking that position seriously here. I’m not sure how to take your tone. Do you really think I’m a child? Do you really doubt I’m a professor? > > More important, why does it matter? I’m not basing any of this argument on my so-called “authority.” I’ve found out some things I didn’t know–the absolute requirement in CS for displaying a high level of deference and extreme decorum in the face of arrant ignorance–and consider this whole long thread to have been well worth the posting. As to what it has “cost” me–I’m willing to pay almost any price, and to take almost any ass-whupping, in exchange for being edified. If you teach me something, but lose all respect for me in the process, I’m ahead of the game, and I thank you for your efforts in teaching me. Wow. Just, wow. The blind arrogance, the irony–the strawmen built entirely of irony!–the crosses climbed. Dude, save this, your post above. Read it again in a year or two. Cringe. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/166 "2006-02-21T17:16:38Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > And yet I’m having a good time, encourging you to make further displays of your near-total lack of command of what (I presume) is your native language. In the hopes of your posting further, and so debasing yourself for my amusement even more, I’ll respond to the first bit of idiocy above alone: \*\*Dex \*\*, not I, originally asked if “we” were clear. He was referring to himself and to me (and to **Biffy** , I suppose). I used the same form back to him. I don’t think anyone but you has a hard time understanding this point. Well, at least you’re honest about what this is really about. As long as you’re amused… > [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > Remember, I’m offering to allow you to kiss my ass in Macy’s window at high noon \ I KNEW it was a rimjob he was after! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/167 "2006-02-21T17:36:31Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > **PRR** , something for you to ponder, as you continue to dig your hole to China: I’ve had to move you from a column labeled “_Dopers worthy of a certain degree of deferential respect in certain areas of discussion; when in doubt, defer_,” to “_Dopers who are more concerned with being an asshole than in productive participation in serious discussion; when in doubt, ignore_.” Now I’m worried which of your Doper columns you’ve placed me in :gasp: ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/168 "2006-02-21T17:39:57Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Now I’m worried which of your Doper columns you’ve placed me in :gasp: In the “Retarded literalist” column. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/169 "2006-02-21T19:17:54Z")
Yikes, talk about the unsound and the furry. Anyhoo, any poetic interpretation that wants me to to say CORtez instead of corTEZ is just plain wrong, though at this point I can’t figure out who’s advocating what in this pillow-fight-to-the-death. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/170 "2006-02-21T19:46:13Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Yikes, talk about the unsound and the furry. Anyhoo, any poetic interpretation that wants me to to say CORtez instead of corTEZ is just plain wrong, though at this point I can’t figure out who’s advocating what in this pillow-fight-to-the-death. My final word on the subject, a poem written by yours truly: _That noble French knight, Charlemagne Heard a Brit say his name with great pain. Quoth he, “Sons of Brittannia: ze name is Sharl-MAN-yuh!” The Brit said, “You Frenchmen all gag me!”_ Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/171 "2006-02-21T20:03:41Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > My final word on the subject, a poem written by yours truly: > > _That noble French knight, Charlemagne > Heard a Brit say his name with great pain. > Quoth he, “Sons of Brittannia: > ze name is Sharl-MAN-yuh!” > The Brit said, “You Frenchmen all gag me!”_ > > Daniel You mean you’re not going to scan it for us? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/172 "2006-02-21T20:44:04Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Yikes, talk about the unsound and the furry. Anyhoo, any poetic interpretation that wants me to to say CORtez instead of corTEZ is just plain wrong, though at this point I can’t figure out who’s advocating what in this pillow-fight-to-the-death. Keats just wasn’t hung up on the pronunciation of foreign names. The Keats scholars I queried thought it unremarkable that he would either have a different pronunciation than “proper” or that he would consider the pronunciation fluid–ripe for the manipulation of a poet. And Keats was a Cockney and apparently caught a lot of flack in his own time for his accent. Those crazy Romantics. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/173 "2006-02-21T20:50:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > … Keats was a Cockney and apparently caught a lot of flack in his own time for his accent. > > Those crazy Romantics. 😃 Was that really a Cockney accent or just the result of Talking In Your Sleep? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/174 "2006-02-21T21:09:07Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > **Knowed Out** , I thought you said you weren’t reading whatever I wrote. Now it turns out you were reading it very closely? So maybe I shouldn’t take very seriously any of your other ignorant and sweeping claims, either? That certainly seems more efficient than disputing you, point by idiotic point. I said I **probably** wouldn’t read what you wrote about **metrics** , but don’t let that stop you, if you actually intend to do it. Your other posts are funny as hell, in a LePetomaine sort of way. I’m still trying to figure out if you actually believe anything you say. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/175 "2006-02-21T23:05:47Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > In a larger sense, this further explains my reluctance to get into metrics here in the Pit, where anyone can take some abusive potshot at my reasoning, and I can either answer the idiocy at length, which will no doubt prove insufficient to that particular idiot, or I can ignore it and be taunted by the idiot’s repetition of his point, and be perceived as cowardly and inadequate to the idiotic task, as in your snarky “we” example, the repetition of which just exposes your obtuseness with each reiteration. Of course, this is so unlike how you reacted in Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/176 "2006-02-22T03:17:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Well, you’d get a lot of agreement, most likely mine, if you argued it can’t be a double iamb. The existence of double iambs is a little iffy. In English, it’s extremely hard to have a pyrrhic or a spondee. A pyrrhic is a foot with no stresses, and a spondee is a foot with two strong, equal stresses. The closest I’ve seen anyone come to an example of a spondee is the phrase “drop dead.” And even so, it’s possible to hear that said with a couple of different stresses, some of which depends on the speaker. Most other potential spondees are usually compound words: Blackjack. TV. Etc. > > Hitting the COR forces me to promote it over “stout.” Stout should be a stressed word and in a majority of lines it would be, but in this case I think it’s metrical filler. It’s not a word that I would have chosen as filler, honestly, because the word wants to be stressed. It’s hard to demote punchy words like stout. > > I’m wandering. > > Anyway, to hear a close approximation of a double iamb, think of the phrase “on the TV.” on the TEE VEE inSIDE the LIVing ROOM (ick) > > Get that rhythm in your head, then read “or like STOUT CORtez WHEN with EAgle EYES.” I sometimes figure the line in musical notes with the unstressed syllables as eighth notes and the stressed as quarters. Or with the unstressed as lower notes and the stressed higher. > > Er, I hope this helped. > > I wonder if a sound file would help most scansion discussions. I’m used to talking about meter and experimenting with it, but for newcomers it’s often baffling. Far be it from me to divert the rocking slapfest going on upthread, but I would like to throw in my reading. (Second-year Shakespeare student here, with twelve credits of metrics and scansion classes under my belt.) Spondees _are_ very rare, but I think this line may contain one: “or LIKE/STOUT COR/tez WHEN/with EAG/le EYES” The first foot and last two-and-a-half feet are pretty definitely straight iambs. I want to stress “COR” over “tez” to lead into the final feet, but as **jsgoddess** notes, “stout” is a hard word to unstress. Having a spondee, and one so early in the line, fits with the image of strength and, moreover, things that aren’t done very often (_first_ reading Chapman’s Homer, watching a new planet swim into its ken, discovering the Pacific) that is a theme in the poem. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/177 "2006-02-22T03:21:32Z")
Okay, a post-final word: I agree with **Tracy**. When I read, “Like stout Cortez,” I find myself slowing down as I read the words, pausing very slightly after each, and wanting to reach up gesture as if I’m grasping something. It’s a line that practically cries out for a Shatnerian reading, overflowing with heroic imagery and militaristic machismo. Yeats, as an accomplished poet, may be trying to achieve this effect. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/178 "2006-02-22T04:00:51Z")
I was going to post a couple of pages ago to join the smackdown, but I realized y’all didn’t exactly need my help. I **will** post here to chime in and say that I’ve found the lessons on scansion to be facinating! I’ll eagerly follow any subsequent threads on metric poetry, even if I probably won’t know enough to contribute even a question. Incredibly, the mind-boggling ignorance shown by one poster is almost matched by the ignorance of my own dutifully being fought in this unlikely venue. I’ve even been inspired to go read some Keats–an activity pretty far down my list of priorities before this thread brought him to life for me. I really do love the Dope! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/179 "2006-02-22T05:56:53Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > Incredibly, the mind-boggling ignorance shown by one poster is almost matched by the ignorance of my own dutifully being fought in this unlikely venue. I’ve even been inspired to go read some Keats–an activity pretty far down my list of priorities before this thread brought him to life for me. I really do love the Dope! You’ve made my day. Seriously. Everyone in this thread who didn’t give a damn about scansion and who now thinks it’s even a little bit interesting just brightens my life. I do have to disagree with **Tracy** and **LHoD**. Three equally stressed syllables in a row is, I think, impossible in English. Something gets demoted or promoted, and it’s generally the middle syllable. Demoting the “like” leads to the double iamb or anapest situation I mentioned earlier. Demoting “Cor” causes all sorts of problems and is unlikely rhetorically. Demoting “stout” leads to straight IP. Stresses are relative, so it isn’t as though all weak stresses have to be exactly the same through the line. But one syllable will lose its punch when it’s next to other stressed syllables, and I think “stout” is the likely candidate. If you read the whole poem, you’ll be swept up in the rhythm of it and the line will fall pretty easily into IP. But scansion is awfully subjective, as you can see! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855/180 "2006-02-22T06:29:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But scansion is awfully subjective, as you can see! No it’s not, it’s objectively factual, unless you’re not ready to learn yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-were-very-unclear/344855.md?page=10)