# Dex, you are not Bill O'Reilly **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045 "2005-07-31T22:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/61 "2005-08-02T00:58:33Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > “Copying and downloading Star Wars video games and movies is not okay—it’s breaking the law because it is stealing someone else’s property.” - Jon Dudas, Under Secratary of Commerce for Intellectual Property, 24 May 2005 “The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We’ve removed an ally of al Qaeda.” - George W. Bush, 1 May 2003 I suppose that’s not a controversial statement either, then. After all, a man in power said it. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > You don’t have the right, and you never did, to overrule a moderator decision to close a thread. _shrug_ Never claimed I did. Never asked for the thread to be reopened, either. > [@](#): > > You have no right to be protected against moderator rudeness. Again, never claimed I did. I’m merely pointing out one instance of moderator rudeness. > [@](#): > > You have no right to be protected against member rudeness when you dare complain about moderator rudeness in the Pit and receive scorn and ridicule and accusations of being a whiny bitch for your trouble. Naturally. It is the Pit, after all, and while I outgrew flame wars long before I ever discovered the SDMB, I know many people still haven’t. I just find it amusing that others are getting so much more emotional about my thread than I am. > [@](#): > > You’re just the latest yarn-ball, fella. The current crotch-kick practice dummy, the dartboard du jour, the winner of this week’s dogpile raffle. Enjoy it while it lasts because as soon as this thread dies, so does interest in you. Oh dear. There go my dreams of being a message board celebrity. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/62 "2005-08-02T01:32:22Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > You’re just the latest yarn-ball, fella. The current crotch-kick practice dummy, the dartboard du jour, the winner of this week’s dogpile raffle. Enjoy it while it lasts because as soon as this thread dies, so does interest in you. Ri-fucking-diculous. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/63 "2005-08-02T01:37:11Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > “The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We’ve removed an ally of al Qaeda.” - George W. Bush, 1 May 2003 > > I suppose that’s not a controversial statement either, then. After all, a man in power said it. No, a _politician_ said it. Mr. Dudas is not a politician. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/64 "2005-08-02T01:41:24Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > No, a _politician_ said it. Mr. Dudas is not a politician. Very well: substitute your favorite quote from Rumsfeld, Rice, or Powell. Statements don’t become uncontroversial whenever someone who was appointed to office repeats them. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/65 "2005-08-02T02:00:10Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Very well: substitute your favorite quote from Rumsfeld, Rice, or Powell. Statements don’t become uncontroversial whenever someone who was appointed to office repeats them. Mr. Dudas isn’t some appointed shmoe to be waved away as “controversial” simply because you don’t agree with him. He has several years of experience in the field of intellectual property and copyright law, including six as Counsel to the Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property, and Staff Director and Deputy General Counsel for the House Committee on the Judiciary. That’s where he guided the enactment of major patent, trademark and copyright policy such as the 1999 American Inventors Protection Act and the passage of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/66 "2005-08-02T02:11:45Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Mr. Dudas isn’t some appointed shmoe to be waved away as “controversial” simply because you don’t agree with him. The _statement_ is what’s controversial, and it remains controversial whether or not I agree with it, because there are thousands of other people out there who dispute it. > [@](#): > > That’s where he guided the enactment of major patent, trademark and copyright policy such as the 1999 American Inventors Protection Act and the passage of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. I’m not surprised that someone who helped pass the DMCA believes copyright infringement is equivalent to stealing. He can have whatever opinions he wants, but we must remember that they’re just that: opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/67 "2005-08-02T02:14:56Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Ri-fucking-diculous. :rolleyes: Well, when a user starts a Pit thread to lodge a complaint and the response tends more toward derision than sympathy, I feel it useful to make certain the user has an opportunity to become fully aware of the various aspects of social interplay involved. Of course, you evidently don’t share my deep and abiding respect for adult education. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/68 "2005-08-02T03:05:49Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > It is the Pit, after all, and while I outgrew flame wars long before I ever discovered the SDMB, I know many people still haven’t. Oh, I get it. You were acting like a whiny bitch so us children who haven’t outgrown flamewars have an excuse to participate in one. Thanks! You rock! ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/69 "2005-08-02T03:19:56Z")
> [@galt](#): > > Oh, I get it. You were acting like a whiny bitch so us children who haven’t outgrown flamewars have an excuse to participate in one. > > Thanks! You rock! Actually, I posted in the Pit because this is where comments on moderator actions are supposed to go. But hey, I can’t blame you for coming in with your cute little insults - when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/70 "2005-08-02T04:45:26Z")
Surprisingly enough, given our vociferous flamewar/debates on this topic in the past, I agree with aspects of **Mr2001** ’s position (and in other news, the Pope announces he is a Hindu). Copyright infringement is not theft, in the legal sense of the latter term. Theft is a different crime, with different penalties etc. I will defend (and have in the past defended against **Mr2001** ) the proposition that copyright infringement and theft are functional and moral equivalents, but that is a different question. Arguing that copyright infringement _is_ theft just gives anti-copyright fanatics the opportunity to prevaricate on the meaning of the latter term. I don’t think **Muffin** ’s cites contradict the position just stated. The court in both cited cases was speaking metaphorically only. Accepting that position, **Mr2001** ’s OP makes a certain kind of sense. Reading it literally, **Dex** ’s statement about theft is incorrect and, to a complete anti-copyright fanatic, provocative. There’s a sliding scale here. We would all be agreeing with this OP if the subject was a similar moderator comment that evinced a strong right/left position on politics. However, if a moderator made a comment that was highly provocative to persons who are outraged by the prospect of those who put their milk in their tea before the hot water instead of the other way around, none of us would bother. **Mr2001** , your problem is that you don’t realise how close to the latter end of the scale you are. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/71 "2005-08-02T04:46:09Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > I can’t blame you for coming in with your cute little insults - when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? Sometimes, it looks like a nail because it **is** a nail. Ready? You nod your head, and I’ll hit it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/72 "2005-08-02T04:52:42Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > copyright infringement and theft are functional and moral equivalents… To be honest, I left off the first half of the Dudas (oh da doo-dah day) quote which says just that. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/73 "2005-08-02T05:22:35Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I agree with aspects of Mr2001’s position Huh… my calendar says August, but clearly it’s already April. 😃 > [@](#): > > There’s a sliding scale here. We would all be agreeing with this OP if the subject was a similar moderator comment that evinced a strong right/left position on politics. However, if a moderator made a comment that was highly provocative to persons who are outraged by the prospect of those who put their milk in their tea before the hot water instead of the other way around, none of us would bother. > > **Mr2001** , your problem is that you don’t realise how close to the latter end of the scale you are. Fair enough. After spending enough time on other forums with like-minded individuals, it’s easy for me to forget just how few people care enough about this issue to see the connection between Dex’s comment and past debates, and that even fewer of them are on my side. I would’ve thought the general principle “_if_ this is provocative, _then_ a moderator shouldn’t post it immediately before closing a thread” would get more traction, which is why I drew an analogy in the OP to a hypothetical comment we could all agree was provocative. Judging from the responses so far, though, it seems there are only a handful of people who even agree with that much. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/74 "2005-08-02T06:23:11Z")
Oh, for God’s sake. The idea that copyright infringement is not theft is controversial in exactly the sameway that Young Earth Creationism or the Apollo Hoax are controversial. Sure, there’re thousands of people who believe both of those to be absolutely true, but that doesn’t mean that any reasonably intelligent person has pretend that there’s a shred of truth to either of them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/75 "2005-08-02T06:36:09Z")
Who has seen them in the same room at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/76 "2005-08-02T06:45:10Z")
The problem with that bald statement, Miller, is that you just give the “non reasonably intelligent persons” traction. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/77 "2005-08-02T06:55:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Oh, for God’s sake. The idea that copyright infringement is not theft is controversial in exactly the sameway that Young Earth Creationism or the Apollo Hoax are controversial. No, those are essentially factual matters: the world was either created 6000 years ago or it wasn’t, and man either landed on the moon or he didn’t. Equating copyright infringement with theft, OTOH, is a moral or ethical opinion that may be at odds with legal fact. On one side, we have the metaphorical use of the word “theft” in a few documents and statements from government official; on the other, we have for example [Dowling v. United States (1985)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=473&invol=207): > [@](#): > > Since the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple “goods, wares, [or] merchandise,” interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. > […] > It follows that interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: “`Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner,' that is, anyone who trespasses into his exclusive domain by using or authorizing the use of the copyrighted work in one of the five ways set forth in the statute, `is an infringer of the copyright.’ [17 U.S.C.] 501(a).” As far as “any reasonably intelligent person” goes, there are many ways to accurately describe Richard Stallman and Lawrence Lessig, but unintelligent isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/78 "2005-08-02T12:25:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Who has seen them in the same room at the same time? Who said it who said, ‘Yes, dammit, one CAN prove a fucking negative’? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/79 "2005-08-02T13:34:08Z")
Failure to state that it wasn’t I is not the negation of what I didn’t say, notwithstanding to the contrary that I didn’t say it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045/80 "2005-08-02T13:43:35Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Failure to state that it wasn’t I is not the negation of what I didn’t say, notwithstanding to the contrary that I didn’t say it wasn’t. I’m going in to parse this. Cover me, boys! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dex-you-are-not-bill-oreilly/315045.md?page=5)