# Dice is the plural of die? What gives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 1, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757 "2003-04-01T18:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/1 "2003-04-01T18:20:48Z")
I understand that the English language is a complicated one in many respects. Most of our grammatical rules do make sense, however, and almost every question I have asked about word formations or sentence structure has always been answered. This question seems to be the exception to the rule. My point of contention is this: Most plurals are formed by simply adding “s”. There are some exceptions like mice to mouse, or ox to oxen. I can find other words that are made plural in this same manner (lice to louse, or child to children). What I can’t find is another word that is made plural by inserting a letter between two existing letters. Die is made plural by inserting the “c” inbetween “i” and “e”. Why is this so? I would appreciate an explanation, or another word that follows this same reasoning. moejuck ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/2 "2003-04-01T18:31:13Z")
Because “douse” would sound silly for one of a pair of dice. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/3 "2003-04-01T18:32:42Z")
It wasn’t originally an inserted letter: [http://www.etymonline.com/d3etym.htm](http://www.etymonline.com/d3etym.htm) > [@](#): > > dice - 13c., dys, pl. of dy (see die (n.)), altered 14c. to dyse, dyce, and 15c. to dice. Sometimes used as sing. 1400-1700. The v. “to cut into cubes” is 14c. Dicey “doubtful, difficult” is British slang, first recorded 1940s. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/4 "2003-04-01T18:35:22Z")
I would add that their slang attribution sounds, well, dicey. I would have guessed a good bit earlier than the 1940’s. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/5 "2003-04-01T18:40:24Z")
Thanks for your help, my life is feeling more complete now. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/6 "2003-04-01T18:53:01Z")
The beauty of irregularly inflected words is that they are, well, irregular–they follow their own rules. I have just checked several references and can’t find one that explains why _die_ forms its plural as _dice_, nor can I find any other example of a word ending in _-ie_ forming its plural as _-ice_. But while some irregular plurals share their irregularity with other words (for example, _man_ \> _men_ and _woman_ \> \* women\*), many do not. For example, I can’t think of an analog for _cow_ \> _kine_, _foot_ \> _feet_, _goose_ \> _geese_, _sow_ \> _swine_, or _tooth_ \> _teeth_. Perhaps nobody knows what foreign or ancient rule of forming plurals _die_ follows, but it was not necessarily “made plural by inserting a letter between two existing letters.” The rule may have been that the singular ending _-ie_ forms the plural _-ice_, not unlike _mouse_ \> _mice_. Or perhaps, when the regular plural _-s_ was forming several centuries ago, _die_ followed the pattern but _dice_ was some copyist’s idiosyncratic spelling of a word that you and I would have spelled as _dies_. P.S. _Louse_ \> _lice_, not “lice to louse.” Interestingly, “when _louse_ refers to a scoundrel or cad, the plural is _louses_.” Bryan A. Garner, _A Dictionary of Modern American Usage_ 504 (1998), s.v. _plurals_. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/7 "2003-04-01T18:54:06Z")
D’oh! Preview, preview! Good work, **yabob**. ---
**Author:** ![bobk2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@bobk2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobk2)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/8 "2003-04-01T19:23:24Z")
I’m not sure how this fits in the thread but The American Heritage® Dictionary says the plural of “pie” is “pis” or “pies”. So, “pie” seems to be subject to yet some other ‘rule’ or explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/9 "2003-04-01T20:02:54Z")
Linguistically, it important to not worry so much about spelling as to actual sounds. Orthography (writing systems) are always the slowest to change and therefore make the least sense. Orthographically there seems to be a letter “inserted”, but phonetically: die [dai] vs. dice [dais] FWIW ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/10 "2003-04-01T20:23:40Z")
Having looked in the Oxford English Dictionary, I come up with the following interesting tidbit under “die”: > [@](#): > > As in pence, the plural s retains its original breath sound, probably because these words were not felt as ordinary plurals, but as collective words; cf. the orig. plural truce, where the collective sense has now passed into a singular. This pronunciation is indicated in later spelling by -ce: cf. the umlaut plurals lice, mice, the inflexional forms hence, once, twice, since, and the words ice, nice, advice, device, defence, in all which -ce represents a phonetic and original -s. In the newer senses where the plural is not collective, a form (daz) of the ordinary type has arisen; cf. the non-collective later plural ‘pennies’. Originally, in Middle English, the plural was _dés_ or _dees_. The OED notes that the word _de_ had passed from one class of nouns (the ‘e’-class) to another (the ‘i’-class) by 1500, which presumably means that the spelling of the plural changed to reflect the change in pronunciation. So, as I understand it, ‘dice’ actually follows the plural formations observed by ‘lice’ and ‘mice’ rather than being something completely unique in the English language. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/11 "2003-04-01T20:29:19Z")
[off-topic] The word ‘nice’, according to the OED, has an obsolete meaning of “wanton or lascivious”. And you thought your mother didn’t have your best interests in mind when she wanted you to meet a nice girl. [/off-topic] ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dice-is-the-plural-of-die-what-gives/165757/12 "2003-04-01T20:31:33Z")
“Die (n): The singular of _Dice_. Rarely heard nowadays because there is a prohibitary proverb: ‘Never say Die.’ A Cube of Cheese no bigger than a die May bait a trap to catch a straggling mie.” – Ambrose Bierce **The Devil’s Dictionary**