# Dick Cheney Breaks with the GOP: Discuss **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519 "2004-08-26T00:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/1 "2004-08-26T00:16:48Z")
Dick Cheney’s recent stand against a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage (novices: that’s a “pro-gay” stance) was certainly a surprise to most of us. He publicly broke with the President – _his boss_ – and stated his own opinion: that marriage should be left to the various states. Cheney also stated that the President makes policy, and that he (Cheney) was only stating his own opinion. He reiterated his pride in and love for both of his daughters. The question for debate is: **How will Dick Cheney’s public support of gay unions affect the GOP’s ability to get out the vote this November?** It seems to me that it could go both ways, or have no effect. I can see moderates who are stuck on that specific issue taking his stance as a ray of sunshine; they can now hold their noses a little less firmly and vote for Bush/Cheney. I can also see far-right conservatives so put off by his acceptance of the “Sodomites” that they stay home from the polls. Will this be a net gain, or a net loss, for the GOP? Self-identified conservatives and/or Republicans, feel free to share your own opinions here, since you’re one member of the class in question. Liberals, please include your name and town if you wish to opine. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/2 "2004-08-26T00:30:03Z")
This thing is so overblown I almost hesitiate to even post in this thread. All Cheney did was say he was against a federal constitutional amendment. That’s it. Lots of Republicans and other conservatives have said the same thing. He DID NOT come out in favor of gay unions any more than Bush has. He did not say he’d oppose a constitutional amendment on the state level (I’m guessing he’d support one). This is the biggest non event being reported in the news these days. Maybe it’s supposed to make Cheney appear less distant and cold, but no one is going to be changing his or her vote because of this. No one. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/3 "2004-08-26T00:34:54Z")
meh ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/4 "2004-08-26T01:40:49Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > Dick Cheney’s recent stand against a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage (novices: **that’s a “pro-gay” stance** ) was certainly a surprise to most of us. Um, once again, no. Cheney’s recent “stand” is not “pro-gay” by even the most charitable of definitions. At _best_ it’s “maybe not quite as anti-gay as some others.” And before anyone brings it up, yes, it’s the exact same position that John Kerry has made. Only the most naive would believe that democrats and republicans are going to have exactly opposite opinions on every issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/5 "2004-08-26T03:34:10Z")
My first reaction to this story was to recognize that Dick Cheney doesn’t “break” with the GOP, so this must be carefully calculated. I just couldn’t figure out the purpose. Then on the way home, NPR had David Brock on, who, in the context of discussing the upcoming GOP convention, was making the claim that the GOP has more room for reasonable differences on issues. AHA! This is a bald attempt to make themselves appear more of an open tent, but as others have noted, he really didn’t say much, and only went so far as to say it is a states’ rights issue, which is more typically the GOP line anyway. Additionally, for once he is able to use his daughter’s homosexuality, since hardliners can justify his statements because he is swayed out of compassion for his family. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/6 "2004-08-26T06:58:41Z")
Actions speak louder than words. I don’t expect to see Cheney actually _do_ anything to support gay unions other than pay it lip service, which will let the re-election campaign handlers trot him out as an example of “compassionate conservatism.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/7 "2004-08-26T12:16:41Z")
It’s a blatant crumb tossed to Log Cabin Republicans and others so that the Republican party can look to at least be debating the issue and now Cheney takes the heat of the Religious Right. Simple enough. It’s called having your cake and eating it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/8 "2004-08-26T13:05:38Z")
I’ll echo the above sentiments: very little, kind of late. Still, it is a data point that argues against the conclusion “Dick Cheney is an evil cyborg constructed by the religious right and Halliburton”. If I wasn’t so utterly replused by Bush’s position on gay marriage, it would benefit my opinion of the two, at least as regards gay rights issues. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/9 "2004-08-26T13:12:14Z")
Personally, I didn’t see it as a log-cabin crumb. VP Chaney answered a question honestly without trying to spin it into party agreement. He is a great orator and could have ducked the question easily. What people missed in his words is what he meant by “letting the states decide”. Did he mean State Supreme Courts or did he mean voters? I took it to mean voters. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/10 "2004-08-26T14:28:29Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Actions speak louder than words. I don’t expect to see Cheney actually do anything to support gay unions other than pay it lip service, which will let the re-election campaign handlers trot him out as an example of “compassionate conservatism.” But as **SolGrundy** has said in this very thread, John Kerry holds the same position. So he is just as bad on this issue as Kerry, right? _holding my breath_ ☹ \<— turning blue ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/11 "2004-08-26T14:36:50Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > This thing is so overblown I almost hesitiate to even post in this thread. > > All Cheney did was say he was against a federal constitutional amendment. That’s it. Lots of Republicans and other conservatives have said the same thing. He DID NOT come out in favor of gay unions any more than Bush has. He did not say he’d oppose a constitutional amendment on the state level (I’m guessing he’d support one). > > This is the biggest non event being reported in the news these days. Maybe it’s supposed to make Cheney appear less distant and cold, but no one is going to be changing his or her vote because of this. No one. This is also **not new**. > [@Jurph](#): > > Dick Cheney’s recent stand against a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage (novices: that’s a “pro-gay” stance) was certainly a surprise to most of us. Then you haven’t been paying close enough attention… > [@](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/25/politics/campaign/25cheney.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/25/politics/campaign/25cheney.html) > > Anne Womack, Mr. Cheney’s campaign press secretary, said Mr. Cheney’s position had not changed. “That’s been his position for the past four years; his position has been completely consistent,” Ms. Womack said. “The idea that he broke new ground or broke with the president today, people are just ignoring the reality of his statements over the past three and a half years.” > > \ > > Mr. Cheney’s remarks, in response to a questioner in Davenport, restated the position he voiced four years ago in the vice-presidential debate, well before Massachusetts’ highest court ruled last year that gay marriage was not prohibited under that state’s Constitution. In 2000, he also declared “freedom means freedom for everybody.” He noted Tuesday that the issue remained what kind of "official sanction, or approval, is going to be granted by the government, if you will, to particular relationships.’’ > > “Historically, that’s been a relationship that has been handled by the states,” Mr. Cheney added.“I made clear four years ago when I ran and this question came up in the debate I had with Joe Lieberman that my view was that’s appropriately a matter for the states to decide, that that’s how it ought to best be handled.” > [@](#): > > [http://www.c-span.org/campaign2000/transcript/debate\_100500.asp](http://www.c-span.org/campaign2000/transcript/debate_100500.asp) > > MR. SHAW: Senator, sexual orientation. Should a male who loves > a male and a female who loves a female have all – all! the > constitutional rights enjoyed by every American citizen? > > \ > > MR. SHAW: Mr. Secretary? > > MR. CHENEY: This is a tough one, Bernie. The fact of the matter > is we live in a free society, and freedom means freedom for everybody. > We don’t get to choose, and shouldn’t be able to choose and say, “You > get to live free, but you don’t.” And I think that means that people > should be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to > enter into. It’s really no one else’s business in terms of trying to > regulate or prohibit behavior in that regard. > > ``` > The next step, then, of course, is the question you ask of > > ``` > > whether or not there ought to be some kind of official sanction, if > you will, of the relationship, or if these relationships should be > treated the same way a conventional marriage is. That’s a tougher > problem. That’s not a slam dunk. > > ``` > I think the fact of the matter, of course, is that matter is > > ``` > > regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come > to different conclusions, and that’s appropriate. I don’t think there > should necessarily be a federal policy in this area. > > ``` > I try to be open-minded about it as much as I can, and tolerant > > ``` > > of those relationships. And like Joe, I also wrestle with the extent > to which there ought to be legal sanction of those relationships. I > think we ought to do everything we can to tolerate and accommodate > whatever kind of relationships people want to enter into. Now… the fact that he’s remained pretty much silent against his boss’s obviously opposing view over the past 4 years, and is only now reiterating it loudly enough to be heard throughout the national press, certainly leads me to believe there’s an agenda afoot. And given the fact that his boss threw out some big, fat lies of his own during _his_ 2000 debates about what he’d do or support if he were elected, I certainly don’t take Cheney’s words from that debate to mean that he actually gives a real shit about the issue (at least not enough to actually _do_ something about it). Which also goes to prove that just because he’s being spotlighted over this issue now, it shouldn’t give false hope to Republicans looking for a reason to remain loyal to this team, thinking that Cheney’s opinion means squat as far as the party no longer pushing the federal contstitutional issue. It obviously doesn’t. But it’s also factually incorrect for the media to be painting this as some kind of change of stance or new revelation, because it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/12 "2004-08-26T15:58:00Z")
My guess, giving Cheney the benefit of the doubt, has been that Cheney is more moderate on this one issue than he is on most other things because of his daughter’s being a lesbian. Although I agree that the politics are trying to present a more moderate image may be coming into it too. The theme of the Republican convention is supposed to be the projection of a nice, friendly moderate image. Hence, our governor George Pataki will be prominently featured even though he is strongly at odds with the Bush Administration over some issues…e.g., environmental issues. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/13 "2004-08-26T19:40:56Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > But as **SolGrundy** has said in this very thread, John Kerry holds the same position. So he is just as bad on this issue as Kerry, right? If John Kerry had been POTUS for four years and did nothing regarding gay unions in that time, you’d have a point. Since he hasn’t been elected President (yet), however, you’re merely confabulating apples and oranges. Dick Cheney’s record of gay rights advocacy from the White House speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/14 "2004-08-26T20:25:07Z")
I think its a maneuver to help Bush with gay voters… the gay marriage ban probably has crippled Bush’s standing with many gays. Cheney is trying to soften that anti-gay stance. Trying to be attractive to both sides of the issue. Of course when things get going Cheney won’t do a thing to support pro-gay legislation… but he’s a politician and that is expected. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/15 "2004-08-26T20:40:05Z")
I recall reading several years ago, with what validity I can’t say, that Dick and Lynne are personally opposed to gay marriages, but (like some other conservatives) do not feel that their views require being enacted into law where they would regulate others. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/16 "2004-08-26T20:49:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I recall reading several years ago, with what validity I can’t say, that Dick and Lynne are personally opposed to gay marriages, but (like some other conservatives) do not feel that their views require being enacted into law where they would regulate others. This is reminiscent of Kerry’s stand on abortion. Only his position on that issue is often criticized because it suffers from something that the commentators call excessive “new aunts.” I dunno. You got me. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/17 "2004-08-27T22:57:31Z")
Cheney is demonstrating what family values really means to him, in supporting his daughter. Cheney’s ice-cold, neutral recital about what Bush did indicates he will let the amendment issue die on it own, without any input from him. He all but shrugged and winked at the filibuster, without pushing to invoke cloture, when a word from him usually gets just about anything he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-breaks-with-the-gop-discuss/261519/18 "2004-08-28T02:01:01Z")
A majority of people are against gay marriage. But many of those people are wary of a federal constitutional amendment banning it. This is a way of softening Bush’s stance so as not to alienate some libertarian Republicans. To paraphrase their message: “Hey, we still hate fags, but we’re not going to mess with the Constitution over it.”