Some people think that the Pakistan/India scenario you describe will come to fruition, God forbid, unless they agree to talks, which India has refused over and over. Is it a good idea? No more than it was when it was the USA/Soviet Union. N. Korea is a problem which we will deal with after Iraq. Iran’s theocracy is probably not far behind.
What’s scary is the challenging world in which we exist today because of failures of past administrations to successfully meet the challenges of their own times. These threats have to be addressed now.
Many governments around the world have supported terrorists in one form or another. However supplying them with WMD especially for use against the US is another thing altogether. There is not much reason to believe Saddam will do this unless Iraq is invaded and he has nothing to lose.
It is scary. And depressing.
Consider: Next to nothing is being done in Washington because of this fanatical focus on Iraq. Domestically our economy is faltering. Internationally we have become the “bully on the block” substituting arrogance and adolescent threats and intimidation for reasoned diplomacy.
Xenophobia. chauvinism and jingoism is rampant. The simplistic attitude of our government towards other nations (we’re good; anyone against us is bad) would be laughable if it was’nt so bone jarringly frightening. As is the view of hawks towards fellow Americans against the war. To wit: the government is good; anyone questioning it’s motives/directives is unpatriotic. Now, that is terrifying.
I disagree CyberPundit - although I would qualify this post with the observation that I enjoy your posts in general. You write in a thoroughly resonable manner I have to say.
But I disagree with the above statement for the following reason… the Bali Bombing proved inarguably that Islamic terrorism has spread far and wide - and worse yet - is thoroughly autonomous now - regardless of what “cadre” or “team name” it’s committed under.
It’s my belief that incidents such as 9/11 and the Bali Bombing and the various bombings in the Phillippines will continue regardless of whether an invasion takes place or not. Such is the nature of indoctrination which has emanated from the “Wahabbist” school of “Islamic Superiority” over the last century.
I would also add that countries such as Australia, which have openly supported the USA in the last 2 years on the “War on Terror” have very much put themselves in the “cross hairs” of the Islamic Extremists, and it’s a very sad thing indeed.
Nonetheless, occasionally in life, we have to put our principles on the line, and this is one of those moments in time.
Iraq, ironically, is quite a “high profile diversion”… it seems to me that the desire by Islamic Extremists, due to the dreadful indoctrination by the afore mentiond Wahabbist school of Clerics, will continue to strike out at the innocent for quite some time yet, until their positions of influence are irrevocably undermined.
Worse yet, I fear that 9/11 was merely the tip of an iceberg.
In my above post where I mentioned “having to put our principles on the line”, I was referring specifically to Australia’s efforts to help and aid the USA in the “War on Terror”.
As for my perceptions of the OP? It would be improper for a non American to pass judgement on the Vice President of the USA. This is something I have complete faith that my American friends on this board are capable of debating without any input from me!
I would respectfully suggest however that certain aspects of the PR campaign thus far have been handled rather poorly.
Down here in Australia, the general consensus, as it seems to me, is that Secretary of State Colin Powell is the man. He’s the guy who everybody agrees “speaks from the heart” and does so with a judicious sense of gravitas. And most importantly, he seems to be a guy who the world can trust.
“But I disagree with the above statement for the following reason… the Bali Bombing proved inarguably that Islamic terrorism has spread far and wide - and worse yet - is thoroughly autonomous now - regardless of what “cadre” or “team name” it’s committed under.”
And how exactly is invading Iraq going to prevent what happened in Bali from happening again?
Mandelstam, my position is that militant Islamic Extremism is independant of Iraq.
It’s an improper assumption on your part to argue that if believe that terrorism incidents will continue regardless of an invasion of Iraq, that by extension, that I ALSO believe an invasion of Iraq will cure the phenomonon of militant Islamic Extremism.
I didn’t say that earlier, and I’m not saying that now. Please, I request, please don’t put words in my mouth.
Boo: “…my position is that militant Islamic Extremism is independant of Iraq.”
Precisely. That is the position of most rightheaded people–though it is a position that the Bush administration has been trying (unsuccessfully) to confuse for months now.
“Please, I request, please don’t put words in my mouth.”
I did not put words in your mouth. I asked you a simple question.
You recognize that there’s no connection between Iraq and militant Islamic terrorism, and you recognize that the latter is the real danger. But you continue to hold–for reasons as yet unexplained by yourself–that an Iraq invasion will make some kind of positive contribution to the “War on Terror.” And you explicitly reject the positon made by many (including now the US’s own intelligence agencies) that war will make it easier to recruit Islamic terrorists.
By all means put words in your own mouth and explain the coherence of your position.
On two counts their you’ve accused me of saying things which I have not said.
Moreover, in thread upon thread on this messageboard in the last month, I have described a potential war in Iraq as ACTUALLY being a “punch in the guts” to the TRUE “War on Terror”. Any reasonable poster on this postboard will have seen such posts and will testify to same.
Accordingly, may I invite you once again read my second post in this thread, where to be safe from people like yourself, I voluntarily added a qualifier to my initial post.
I challenge you outright now to quote me to back up your assertions, failing which - this gets reported bucko.
Surely you’d concede that a US-led attack on an Arabic and Islamic country is likely to increase support for, and recruitment to, militant Islamic extremist groups?
jjimm, certainly the calls to do so within militant Islamic groups will increase - without doubt. Perhaps, the take up rate is already saturated… who knows. But it’s not unreasonable to assume that the sheer volume of “calls to arms” will go through the roof, yes.
Boo, I’ll let jjimm take over, as I’ve got to to work and I’m hard-pressed to see why you’re so insistent that your own stated positions are being misrepresented. You “disagreed” with CyberPundit’s quoted statement, and I queried you on what followed. If elsewhere on these Boards you’ve made arguments that point to the illogic of war with Iraq, more power to you. Suffice it to say that your statements in this thread are, at best, confusing. I’m not sure where you intend to “report” me, but I suspect I’ll survive the experience. 'Til then, g’day.
If we had known about 9/11 beforehand we wouldn’t have had to bomb anybody, we could have just had a few feds hanging out at the airports waiting to relieve a few guys of their box cutters. Problem solved. Crisis averted.
Did Slippery Dick offer any evidence that iraq has any tention or even ability to attack the US?
Mandelstam, in my defence, I would point out that my “insistence that you’re putting words in my mouth” is in direct proportion to your insistance that my earlier posts implied things which I patently didn’t intend.
Now, I appreciate it’s your right, or any of our fellow Dopers rights to “interpret” what I said and then paraphrase that interpretation in further debate. Fine… don’t have a problem with that at all. But it’s also my right to tell you that you’re trying to shag the wrong pony if you’ve got it wrong.
Look, I’m just a normal 40 year old guy in Australia who’s trying to be as objective as possible and trying to make sense out of all of this mess. Most importantly, I’m trying to be reasonable at all times.
Nonetheless, some of your interpretations, and the confusion you felt, were, in my considered opinion, caused far more by you you hearing what you wanted to hear rather than what I actually said. But that’s cool - we’re all human. Just rest assured, if I wanna say something, I’m not a shrinking violet. I’m not afraid to say it if I think it needs to be said.
