# Dick Cheney Reconsidered
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574 "2010-02-11T18:55:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/1 "2010-02-11T18:55:20Z")
OK, here is a great debate.
I am reading _Write It When I’m Gone,_ by a reporter for Newsweek who became a buddy of Gerry Ford and who interviewed him many times after DF left office. Gerry seems like a real nice guy, much more savy than the popular image credits him.
Dick Cheny (after serving as a congressman) was Ford’s first chief of staff in the White House. Ford like the guy. Like him a lot. He pushed for Cheny to be Veep on several tickets before Bush the Lesser made the pick.
As an exercise, let us stretch our hive mind. Presume Ford was right, presume Dick was a Nice Guy.
Could this be true? If so, how did the media get such a bad impression of him?
I have kicked this around and I wonder if this is possible … Cheny is a swell fellow, a real insider who had way too much influence, but a nice guy. But 9-11 scared him very, very badly. As a result he did a lot of really dumb things. Further he was too proud to change his mind even if he later wanted to.
Could this in fact be the case?
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/2 "2010-02-11T19:06:29Z")
Cheney’s personality isn’t important except to the extent it helps us understand his actions in office. I don’t really care if he can be described as nice or mean. He might be very pleasant guy if you get to know him individually. Certainly plenty of people have said the same about George W. Bush and Bill Clinton. But Dick Cheney was also George H. W. Bush’s Secretary of Defense, so if you’re suggesting he was a flowers-and-bunnies pacifist, you’re probably wrong.
Anyway: how did the press get a bad impression of Cheney? This probably didn’t help:
Bush [to Cheney, preparing to address a crowd]: “There’s Adam Clymer, major league asshole from the New York Times.”
Cheney [same]: “Oh yeah, he is, big time.”
From there Cheney’s and his aggressive views on foreign policy and his penchant for secrecy - I don’t mean executive power, I mean that he didn’t like to deal with the press, and neither did most of the Bush adminstration - probably did the rest. His “Fuck you” to Sen. Pat Leahy (on the senate floor) didn’t help, but I’m sure his reputation was well sealed by that point.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/3 "2010-02-11T19:12:37Z")
There is a difference between Cheney = Swell Guy prior to becoming VP and Cheney = Swell Guy after becoming VP.
Maybe it is power corrupts thing but certainly his actions as VP and since paint the picture of a seriously not good or nice guy.
You can discuss why he changed (if he indeed did change rather than just quietly smile on his way up while harboring evil thoughts) if you want. Not sure it matters much.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/4 "2010-02-11T19:13:15Z")
I’ve read that Bush the Elder reined in a lot of the more aggressive members of his Cabinet. He had the self-confidence and experience to do that, which Bush the Younger did not.
I don’t think you can blame his behavior on 9/11. Remember that before this he nominated himself as VP. In addition, we blame him for Iraq, not Afghanistan, and Cheney surely knew that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. If he had really cared, he would have supported putting in enough resources to catch bin Laden, and not diverting them elsewhere.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/5 "2010-02-11T19:14:05Z")
I’ll add this, because maybe I didn’t address your central point: I don’t think September 11th changed Dick Cheney’s opinions on much of anything. I think it reinforced them and in some cases it gave him a chance to put them into action. From reading about him I think he always believed in a strong chief executive, believed in taking an aggressive foreign policy, believed international alliances were of little value, and so on.
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### Author:  [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/6 "2010-02-11T19:36:16Z")
One trait I see from Cheney is a willingness to take political and factual matters and make them personal. I’m thinking of things like the Joe Wilson/Valerie Plame affair. Forget for the moment whether a crime was committed, and all of the who-told-whom stuff that was debated at the time. The core of the story, to me, is that someone published some facts that the administration didn’t like, and rather than go after the facts, they went after the people. That’s dirty pool.
I don’t have a secret recording of Cheney saying “how dare he disagree with us, let’s ruin him,” but he either directed it or sat back while others did.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/7 "2010-02-11T19:47:13Z")
Cheney was a charter member of "The Project of a New America’. He and Wolfowitz, Abrams, Bush, Rumsfield, Libby, and Bennett. He was also a follower of Fritz Kraemer. His credentials as a neo-con are long established. His far right wing policies are many decades old.
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### Author:  [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/8 "2010-02-11T19:59:27Z")
A couple of possibilities present themselves.
1. Cheny is a great guy who has simply been misunderstood.
2. Cheny is a nasty man, and Ford was a poor judge of character.
3. Ford was a nastier fellow than we think, and so naturally he like Cheny.
4. Cheny was a great Chief of Staff by made a nasty Veep.
a. because he changed while Veep, or
b. because he changed between the time he was CoS and when he became Veep.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/9 "2010-02-11T20:06:00Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> Cheney was a charter member of "The Project of a New America’. He and Wolfowitz, Abrams, Bush, Rumsfield, Libby, and Bennett. He was also a follower of Fritz Kraemer. His credentials as a neo-con are long established. His far right wing policies are many decades old.
Project for a New American Century, I believe. The PNAC Gallery.
I think Cheney’s a scumbag who always wanted to have people tortured and did so as soon as he thought he’d have enough sympathy from the proles to get away with it.
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### Author:  [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/10 "2010-02-11T20:10:59Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#):
>
> A couple of possibilities present themselves.
>
> 1. Cheny is a great guy who has simply been misunderstood.
> 2. Cheny is a nasty man, and Ford was a poor judge of character.
> 3. Ford was a nastier fellow than we think, and so naturally he like Cheny.
> 4. Cheny was a great Chief of Staff by made a nasty Veep.
> a. because he changed while Veep, or
> b. because he changed between the time he was CoS and when he became Veep.
To me you are missing the essential ingredient:
He is a great guy if he agrees with you and you agree with him. If not - watch out!
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/11 "2010-02-11T20:26:53Z")
He is actually intelligent and well spoken. That makes it much worse. He has found a way to justify war, greed and selfishness.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/12 "2010-02-11T20:46:02Z")
Remember that Cheney began his political career in the Nixon White House, and the Watergate scandal is [said to have had a profound influence on his views of electoral power and its constraints:](http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/09/02/dick-cheney-and-the-lessons-of-watergate/)
> [@](#):
>
> Cheney saw all this but still believed that the post-Watergate reforms were excessive in reducing presidential power.
>
> Cheney’s behaviour as vice president, in spite of his latest efforts to rewrite much of the account of the last eight years, seems to have been motivated by his crusade to regain some of that lost power and bring back what he considered constitutional balance to the American system of government.
Unless American public opinion somehow converts to Cheney’s vision of the “unitary executive”, with more discretionary powers and less accountability, I don’t see historical revisionism having much influence on his reputation.
As far as purely personal traits go, I think it’s worth remembering that although nobody seems to regard Cheney as likeable, he maintains ties with his lesbian daughter and her partner and child, even though acceptance of homosexuality is not a road to popularity with most conservatives. So the scowly old Evil Overlord does apparently value personal loyalties over currying favor with ideologues, and I can respect him for that.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/13 "2010-02-11T20:51:09Z")
He impressed me during the 2000 campaign and VP debate, even though I new very little about him.
I have great respect for Gerry Ford. I suspect that while Cheney may have been perfect for the Chief of Staff role but unfit for Vice President.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/14 "2010-02-11T20:55:27Z")
Let’s not give too much weight to Gerald Ford’s judgment of character. He thought **Nixon** was a nice guy.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/15 "2010-02-11T21:40:36Z")
Cheney was hugely popular as SecDef during the first Gulf War. He exudes an air of competence and intelligence, and talks in ‘straight talk’, which people love - when they agree with him. Another politician like that is Don Rumsfeld, who started out in the Bush administration as its most popular figure - a near rock star in political circles.
But guys like that can also come across as dismissive and arrogant, which is maddening if you don’t agree with them. They’re lightning rods. Both of them rode the heights of popularity, then became enemies #1 and #2 when public opinion turned against what they were doing and they continued being themselves - unapologetic, forceful, dismissive of other viewpoints, etc.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/16 "2010-02-11T21:42:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Let’s not give too much weight to Gerald Ford’s judgment of character. He thought **Nixon** was a nice guy.
I think Ford’s opinion of both Nixon and Cheney tells us more about Ford (who was a generous, affable, easy-to-get-along with guy) than it does about the other men.
Does anyone know anybody that Ford _didn’t_ like?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/17 "2010-02-11T21:55:31Z")
Upwards of a hundred thousand innocent people are dead today, in no small part due to Dick Cheney. May he be the nicest man ever to roast in Hell.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/18 "2010-02-11T22:01:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Upwards of a hundred thousand innocent people are dead today, in no small part due to Dick Cheney. May he be the nicest man ever to roast in Hell.
Far upwards. And don’t forget the ruined, the orphaned, the maimed, the widowed, and those who’ve fled to escape the ruin that is Iraq.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/19 "2010-02-11T22:27:48Z")
I’ve read in a few places that Cheney’s personality seemed to change after his heart attack - which is not an uncommon occurrence. His personality when he worked for Gerald Ford might in fact have been different from his personality now.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/20 "2010-02-11T22:28:02Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#):
>
> A couple of possibilities present themselves.
>
> 1. Cheny is a great guy who has simply been misunderstood.
> 2. Cheny is a nasty man, and Ford was a poor judge of character.
> 3. Ford was a nastier fellow than we think, and so naturally he like Cheny.
> 4. Cheny was a great Chief of Staff by made a nasty Veep.
> a. because he changed while Veep, or
> b. because he changed between the time he was CoS and when he became Veep.
A guy can he affable in private and come off as a jerk when dealing with the press and the public. Anyway did Ford push for the guy because he was _nice_ or because he thought Cheney would be a good vice president?
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