# Dick Cheney Reconsidered **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574 "2010-02-11T18:55:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/41 "2010-02-12T13:34:33Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > 1. Cheny was a great Chief of Staff by made a nasty Veep. > a. because he changed while Veep, or > b. because he changed between the time he was CoS and when he became Veep. c. he concealed his true nastiness the better to ingratiate himself to those who could help him politically. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/42 "2010-02-12T14:17:42Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Does anyone know anybody that Ford _didn’t_ like? Squeaky Fromme? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/43 "2010-02-12T14:46:13Z")
I don’t see why Ford’s opinion is all that relevant - and I say that as someone who respects him a good deal more than most liberals do (and a good deal more than I respect most Republicans, for that matter). Ford probably had minimal contact with Cheney after he left office, and people can change an awful lot in 20 years, with or without heart attacks. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/44 "2010-02-12T15:00:37Z")
[ > [@](#): > > In 1986, Cheney, along with 145 Republicans and 31 Democrats, voted against a non-binding Congressional resolution calling on the South African government to release Nelson Mandela from prison, after the Democrats defeated proposed amendments that would have required Mandela to renounce violence sponsored by the African National Congress (ANC) and requiring it to oust the communist faction from its leadership; the resolution was defeated. Appearing on CNN, Cheney addressed criticism for this, saying he opposed the resolution because the ANC “at the time was viewed as a terrorist organization and had a number of interests that were fundamentally inimical to the United States.”[27] ]([Dick Cheney - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney#Votes)):eek: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/45 "2010-02-12T15:47:35Z")
> [@The Second Stone](#): > > Cheney shot his best friend in the face with a shotgun. And then made his friend apologize. While I hold no brief for Cheney’s likeability or integrity (beyond the one instance I noted upthread), I have to protest the level of spin on this one, which could be downright misleading for anyone who doesn’t remember the actual quail-hunt incident. Cheney injured a friend in a hunting accident, and the friend later said in a press conference that he and his family felt “deeply sorry for everything Vice President Cheney and his family have had to deal with.” That’s an expression of sympathy, not an apology for having been shot, and I know of no evidence that Cheney “made” his friend say it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/46 "2010-02-12T15:59:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > While I hold no brief for Cheney’s likeability or integrity (beyond the one instance I noted upthread), I have to protest the level of spin on this one, which could be downright misleading for anyone who doesn’t remember the actual quail-hunt incident. > > Cheney injured a friend in a hunting accident, and the friend later said in a press conference that he and his family felt “deeply sorry for everything Vice President Cheney and his family have had to deal with.” That’s an expression of sympathy, not an apology for having been shot, and I know of no evidence that Cheney “made” his friend say it. Well he knew Cheney had a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/47 "2010-02-16T22:57:30Z")
I’m not a fan of Cheney, but do we know if Cheney spun around, or if the friend went down the firing line in their hunting direction? ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/48 "2010-02-16T23:26:20Z")
Just reading about a loathesome public figure here for shits and giggles, but about the “accident” - wasn’t it bandied about that Cheney’s GIRLFRIEND was the one who accidentally shot the guy in the face and he took the blame/credit for it? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/49 "2010-02-17T00:57:20Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > I’m not a fan of Cheney, but do we know if Cheney spun around, or if the friend went down the firing line in their hunting direction? > [@salinqmind](#): > > about the “accident” - wasn’t it bandied about that Cheney’s GIRLFRIEND was the one who accidentally shot the guy in the face and he took the blame/credit for it? [Wiki sez:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_incident#People_present) > [@](#): > > Cheney had a televised interview[8] about the shooting on February 15. On February 22, the Sheriff’s office released statements from Katherine Armstrong, Sarita Armstrong, [Pamela Pitzer] Williford, Oscar Medellin, Gerado Medellin and Andrew Hubert. Cheney’s statement and all six of the other hunting party members’ statements specify that: > > Cheney, Whittington and Williford had first shot birds together in a covey > > While Whittington was searching for a downed bird, Cheney, Williford and an ‘Outrider’ (Guide) walked towards another covey about 100 yards (100 m) away > > Whittington approached to within 30 or 40 yards (40 m) of the shooters > > A single bird flew up, around and behind Cheney in the direction of Whittington > > Cheney shot at the bird and hit Whittington > > The shooting occurred somewhere around 1730 hours and 1830 hours. I’ve never heard of any rumors that Pamela Williford, who was the only female member of the shooting party, is Dick Cheney’s girlfriend, although she is a family friend of the Bushes. As for the immediate cause of the accident, it looks to my totally-ignorant-of-quail-shooting-procedure view as though both Cheney and Whittington got focused on other things (Whittington on finding a downed bird, Cheney on moving to another covey) and forgot to keep track of each other’s whereabouts. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/50 "2010-02-17T01:56:12Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > Just reading about a loathesome public figure here for shits and giggles, but about the “accident” - wasn’t it bandied about that Cheney’s GIRLFRIEND was the one who accidentally shot the guy in the face and he took the blame/credit for it? Back to my hijack about Cheney’s personality and his hard-drinking ways—I remember when the hunting accident happened, there was an initial statement saying that absolutely NO alcohol was consumed by any members of the hunting party, and it was high treason to even suggest that there was drinking involved. (and Lord knows that NO upstanding fieldsman has ever had a few brews on a Texas quail outing) Later it was revealed that there may have indeed been some beer consumed by several members of the group, but only one(!) can each, and Cheney probably didn’t even finish his… I think Dick Cheney is a bed-wetting, blackout alcoholic who may go through long stretches of sobriety, but even when he is not actively drinking, alcohol is a HUGE factor in his mercurial personality. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/51 "2010-02-17T02:54:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve read in a few places that Cheney’s personality seemed to change after his heart attack - which is not an uncommon occurrence. His personality when he worked for Gerald Ford might in fact have been different from his personality now. Which one . he has had at least 4. ---
**Author:** ![Oveja\_Slayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/47e85d/32.png) [@Oveja\_Slayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oveja_Slayer)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/52 "2010-02-17T04:22:10Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > A couple of possibilities present themselves. > > 1. Cheny is a great guy who has simply been misunderstood. > 2. Cheny is a nasty man, and Ford was a poor judge of character. > 3. Ford was a nastier fellow than we think, and so naturally he like Cheny. > 4. Cheny was a great Chief of Staff by made a nasty Veep. > a. because he changed while Veep, or > b. because he changed between the time he was CoS and when he became Veep. Or Cheney is a politician, schmoozed Ford (to get Ford to push him for VP perhaps, or maybe Cheney was just “politicking”) so Ford only saw one side of Cheney - the side Cheney wanted him to see. He was pretty low profile back then, publicly speaking. People wouldn’t know much on him unless they actively sought it out. Your possibilities are also valid ones, just adding another possibility. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/53 "2010-02-17T06:03:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As for the immediate cause of the accident, it looks to my totally-ignorant-of-quail-shooting-procedure view as though both Cheney and Whittington got focused on other things (Whittington on finding a downed bird, Cheney on moving to another covey) and forgot to keep track of each other’s whereabouts. That all sounds really reasonable, but no. Am accidental shooting victim is at zero fault, every time. The shooter has 100% responsibility to handle a firearm in a safe way. Cheney did not do so. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/54 "2010-02-17T06:18:46Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Am accidental shooting victim is at zero fault, every time. The shooter has 100% responsibility to handle a firearm in a safe way. Cheney did not do so. Okay. I wasn’t trying to assign or apportion blame to the parties in this particular accident, I was just trying to answer **Cardinal** ’s question about how it happened to come about. While I can think of hypothetical cases where a shooting victim did something really dumb or irresponsible that helped precipitate the accident, I think it sounds like a reasonable and just policy to officially assign 100% of the responsibility to the shooter, no matter what the circumstances. Your trigger, your finger, your bad. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/55 "2010-02-17T06:47:55Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > :eek: Ahh yes, the dark days of the “[strategic mineral](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/HRA.htm)” gap! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/56 "2010-02-17T07:39:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Okay. I wasn’t trying to assign or apportion blame to the parties in this particular accident, I was just trying to answer **Cardinal** ’s question about how it happened to come about. > > While I can think of hypothetical cases where a shooting victim did something really dumb or irresponsible that helped precipitate the accident, I think it sounds like a reasonable and just policy to officially assign 100% of the responsibility to the shooter, no matter what the circumstances. Your trigger, your finger, your bad. Thanks for the acknowledgement. I didn’t think you were assigning blame, I was trying to clarify. Sorry I implied otherwise. That shooting accident really chapped my hide re Cheney. The incident was disclosed to local press by the owner of the ranch, with an unlikely story that implicated the victim for being shot. The incident happened on Feb 11, 2006, and Cheney hid from the press until Feb 15, finally appearing on Fox News and accepting blame. Did Cheney really think that he could lie low after wounding someone with a shotgun and it would all go away? This attitude made things ten times worse for him. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/57 "2010-02-17T10:21:31Z")
I’m glad to hear that Cheney accepted blame for the shooting. I didn’t watch him on Fox although I had heard that he had chosen to make an appearance there and nowhere else. Did he also express his sympathy to the man he shot and to his family? **Kimstu** , I agree that the friend who was shot was offering his sympathy for causing Cheney so much trouble. I just can’t read it any other way. One thing that I didn’t like about Cheney was how he would say something and they lie about having said it. He would do this over and over. You would think that he would have known better than to do than on Meet the Press. Tim Russert always had the video of his saying it. I’m not impressed by his criticism of Obama on those occasions when the criticism is so obviously shaped to fool the public. Most of all, I don’t like war criminals. The torture of Guantanamo prisoners is just part of it. There just doesn’t seem to be anything honorable about him. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/58 "2010-02-17T16:29:25Z")
Cheney’s staff was responsible for outing Plame and harming the CIA. His aid Libby fell on the sword . When Cheney was interviewed about it, it was kept secret. He claimed executive privilege like he was the president. (he may have been). But he did great harm to the country and he walked. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/59 "2010-02-17T16:35:21Z")
Ford was a professional politician and a member of the House leadership before being president. He is not the type to associate disagreement over issues with evil. He knows that there are unpleasant people who share your politics and very nice people who do not. Given that Cheney has been a player for 4 decades in a town built on personal relationships, it is unlikely that he is a disagreeable person. It is a sign of the immaturity of so much of our political discourse that so many people equate disagreement with their opinions with genuine evil. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574/60 "2010-02-17T17:14:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Given that Cheney has been a player for 4 decades in a town built on personal relationships, it is unlikely that he is a disagreeable person. Huh? What makes you think that a disagreeable person can’t succeed in playing politics? I can think of several notorious counterexamples. > [@puddleglum](#): > > [Ford] knows that there are unpleasant people who share your politics and very nice people who do not. And this is why someone like Cheney doesn’t have to be an agreeable person in order to be a player in national politics. He’s very smart and an efficient administrator, so he can get away with being unpleasant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-reconsidered/528574.md?page=4)