# Dick Cheney you worthless mound of excrement **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157 "2005-05-31T01:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/41 "2005-05-31T07:02:54Z")
GIGO, Actually, those points do not by themselves make Europe anti-American. The polls showing that anti-American sentiment is growing do, but that press statement doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/42 "2005-05-31T07:28:39Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > In a time of war against an enemy who knows form and follows no rules, we must do everything in our power which is reasonable to destroy our enemies. Yes, but this is not reasonable, flawed intelligence in many occasions was used to get the crowd at gitmo. I would say that I will be glad to have the enemies of America locked, but how do we make sure we do? The current administration just keeps on advancing or giving prices to the people involved in the mistakes, it is high time to confirm what we caught in the net. > [@](#): > > The fact that these people could (and IMO should) have been tried at drumhead and executed by some wet behind the ears lieutenant in the field, but instead find themselves sitting in Gitmo or at Bagrahm AB, shows that we are doing everthing within reason to take them down. If we don’t confirm it independently, then some wet behind the ears in guantanamo is getting tainted information along with the good one, and by this time, outdated information. We already have the certifiable conclusion that gross mistakes were made on the way to the war in Iraq, and IIRC some of that “intelligence” came from the “kind and gentle” interrogations in Gitmo. > [@](#): > > They could be dead. Instead, they await trial for an extended period of time. Do you want us to start doing the unthinkable opposite? False Dilemma, both are unthinkable if innocents are involved, and as I have read in some articles, a good chunk of the people there are. > [@fushj00mang](#): > > GIGO, > > Actually, those points do not by themselves make Europe anti-American. The polls showing that anti-American sentiment is growing do, but that press statement doesn’t. The point was that that press statement fits what “those jokers” are saying now. . ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/43 "2005-05-31T07:51:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > False Dilemma, both are unthinkable if innocents are involved, and as I have read in some articles, a good chunk of the people there are. As was pointed out previously, 100% of the people there are, as none of them have been found guilty of an offence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/44 "2005-05-31T08:12:34Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > As was pointed out previously, 100% of the people there are, as none of them have been found guilty of an offence. Well, yes, there is that; but I can not deny the strong possibility that many are guilty, the scandal is that we are unnecessary delaying finding out who is what, IMO the flawed intelligence of before and after their capture would mean that the information obtained is flawed. Independently checking will then provide more reliable information. I am going to go on a limb and say that I think the powers that be do not want anybody else to check because then the real intelligence scandals will be revealed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/45 "2005-05-31T08:41:43Z")
**Dick Cheney you worthless mound of excrement** See, this is the problem I have with you **ETF** , this is such bullshit! It’s obvious that he’s not a mound. Instead, I think we should call him a pile, heap, or amorphous-blob-o’. I’m glad we had this talk. :mad: I wonder if anybody might like to see [Gonzales’ memo](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999148/site/newsweek/) and [Powell’s reaction to it.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999363/site/newsweek/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/46 "2005-05-31T11:46:00Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > Section B: No…nope. No uniform, no patches, no recognizable signs. Hell, you did see that American soldiers wear a full-color US flag on their BDU’s now, to fit this rule, right? Not that the terrorists we’re holding would have recognized their rights as POW’s. “Insurgents” fail this check. > Section C: Carrying arms openly? Nope. Drive by shootings and planting IED’s which kill civilians does NOT constitute carrying arms openly. Hell, one of the newest tactics they’re employing is dropping an IED through the floorboards of a vehicle at night so they don’t draw suspicion by stopping. Terrorists fail this check. > Section D: Conducting the war in accordance with law and custom of war? Ok…beheadings. Kidnappings. Deliberately killing civilians. Fighting from protected sites (mosques, clinics.) Deliberately misusing protected symbols (running guns and ammo in ambulances.) Not only do they fail, but they lose a point for lack of ingenuity. Playing bait and switch with the discussion will not carry forward your point. We are discussing Guantanamo, where nearly every person incarcerated was picked up in Afghanistan long before any “insurgency” developed there (hence the frequent references to “three years’ imprisonment” in so many narratives). It is here that the U.S. is using twisted logic to claim that the prisoners are neither suspected criminals (who would enjoy rights of procedure under U.S. law) nor Prisoners of War (who would enjoy rights of procedure under international law). So, historically you are wrong in attempting to rebut my point: **B** An enormous number of militias during the War for Independence never established or secured uniforms. (Even the army fielded by the Continental Congress had trouble securing uniforms for all its men.) The U.S. currently operates under the fiction that since we did not happen to recognize the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan, then its defenders cannot claim to be a legitimate army. In other words, the U.S. government has declared that the British would have been (anachronistically) within their rights to treat any militia member captured during the War for Independence as havng no rights at all (at least from April 1775 through February 1778 when France finally recognized the U.S. government). And politically you are wrong, since, by any definition, the Taliban troops were, indeed, resistance fighters. You are also playing games with points **C** and **D** since the topic under discussion is Afghanistan and Guantanamo, not Iraq. * * * In any event, you fail to address my larger point, that we are breeding the terrorists who will attack our children. Moving to Iraq, (since you wish to change the subject without admitting you have done so), our own estimates are that over 70% of the persons detained in Abu Ghraib were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It may make sense to make broad sweeps to round up suspects early in the post-war period (since we had stupidly disbanded the Iraqi Army when several senior commanders offered to let us use non-Baathist divisions for police purposes), but holding those swept-up people incomunicado while making little or no effort to release those who were clearly innocent has already led to _more_ support for the insurrection. I suppose that in your scenario of savage warfare, it does not make any difference whether we detain innocent or guilty persons. That method certainly worked well for Chile, Argentina, and several Iron Curtain countries. You could ask their leaders–had their tactics not failed them. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/47 "2005-05-31T12:01:53Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > And, besides “their home country”, where else does Cheney expect them to go upon release? Uruguay? Well, you go Uruguay and I’ll go mine. [/Groucho] ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/48 "2005-05-31T12:06:11Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > Does anyone really take Amnesty International seriously? When there is something (however big or small) it becomes a huge issue. Whenever there is nothing, they make an issue. Nelson Mandela may argue with you over this point. Amnesty International may hold the extreme point but they hold the point that may win out. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/49 "2005-05-31T12:33:20Z")
If we’re talking Iraq, it’s pretty plain that we’ve violated the GC. ["To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) Taking of hostages; © Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;](http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm) **B** : ["Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: “If you want your family released, turn yourself in.” "](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A54345-2003Jul27¬Found=true) **A** [A quick look at prisoners who’ve died as a result of, or in the course of, their imprisonment/interrogation.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/30/iraq/main614905.shtml) WARNING! GRAPHIC PICTURES! \*\* A & C\*\*[You think she’s using that leash as a show of respect?](http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/50 "2005-05-31T12:57:27Z")
Oh, and the “persons mentioned above” are pretty clearly civilians and those who’ve thrown down their arms, even if they’re not signatories to the treaty. > [@](#): > > Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof. > Article 3 > > In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions: > > 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. Now… there does seem to be some question… but I think that the current quagmire in Iraq is not international, as we’re not being opposed by any nation’s forces. Also, at least until we handed over soverignty, the territory we conquered could only be referred to as ‘ours’. > [@](#): > > Persons protected by the Convention are those who, **at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever,** find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals. > [@](#): > > The provisions of Part II cover the whole of the populations of the countries in conflict, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, nationality, religion or political opinion, and are intended to alleviate the sufferings caused by war. On interrogating civlians: > [@](#): > > No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties. A more direct and general note about hostages > [@](#): > > Article 34 > The taking of hostages is prohibited. On occupied territories: > [@](#): > > SECTION 111 > OCCUPIED TERRITORIES > Article 47 > > Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory. Now, this document is in lawyerese, so I may’ve made some mistakes. My apologies if I did. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/51 "2005-05-31T13:30:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > However, granting that the U.S. has sufficiently won the semantic game so as to pass its actions through its own courts, I would think that there is still the issue of the ethics of the situation, in which we are deliberately abusing (holding without trial or communication) people on the flimsiest excuses,\ > > Had these persons been guilty of crimes, why is the administration afraid to prosecute them in a real court with normal legal protections. > If these persons are not criminals, why is the U.S. afraid to give them the protections due to POWs? > > Guantanamo is the best recruiting argument that al Qaida could create. Bingo, amen and well said. We as a nation showed extreme short sightedness and knee jerk responses to 9/11. IMO, we will be paying for this in one way or another for several generations–UNLESS we grab a clue or two and learn. “my way or the highway” earns no supporters and offends old friends. and Cheney is the scariest thing I’ve come across in a long while. I truly cannot understand his worldview–it’s like he lives in a whole nother world. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/52 "2005-05-31T13:44:30Z")
Regardless of whether our holding of the detainees in Gitmo is in fact right or wrong, and regardless of whether it violates international law or not, do you really expect the Vice President to say it does? What did you expect him to say? “Yeah, we know it violates international law. What are you going to do about it?” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/53 "2005-05-31T13:52:29Z")
**fush** : > [@](#): > > - Risk? Wow, there’s an off chance that these guys may get beaten, tortured, etc. Risk indeed. Not that its happening after the abuses that actually did happen were uncoverd and the guilty punished, but there’s still the possibility…\* First off, _“remain at risk”_ is a figure of speech. It is intended to indicate that there in fact exists a very real possibility that other detainees have, or will be, tortured. Secondly, there are some questions as to whether or not “the guilty” have actually been punished. You may have heard something about this – that some of us suspect the abuses are significantly more widespread than we’ve been led to believe, and that many of those who are actually responsible have not been charged. In case you haven’t, let me provide some [background information](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/bd5ad096fe8cf7c3f592bb873118fe22.htm): > [@](#): > > \*\* U.S. forces in Afghanistan were involved in killings, torture and other abuses of prisoners even before the Iraq war started, Human Rights Watch said today. These crimes, known to senior officials in the military and Central Intelligence Agency, have not still been adequately investigated or prosecuted. Human Rights Watch said that at least six detainees in U.S. custody in Afghanistan have been killed since 2002, including one man held by the CIA. More than two years later, no U.S. personnel have been charged with homicide in any of these deaths, although U.S. Department of Defense documents show that five of the six deaths were clear homicides…. > > - A military intelligence brigade involved in abuse at Bagram airbase outside Kabul, including two deaths, was later deployed from Afghanistan to Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison\*…\*\* In one case, four soldiers “murdered” an Afghan detainee; of the four, one received an “administrative reprimand.” In another case, two prisoners were beaten and left chained to the ceiling of their cell for days on end, until they died (a recent NYT article detailed the abuse). [Here](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/03/16/national/w113007S95.DTL) is a recent list of Prisoner Deaths in US custody. Note that only a few are associated with Abu Ghraib in Iraq. Continuing: > [@](#): > > - Hmm…I was unaware that folks who wern’t US citizens were subject to the protections granted by US law. In fact, ain’t that what the hoopla about illegal immigrants is all about, getting them the protections of the law so they aren’t abused?\* As far as I know, as long as you are on US soil, you are afforded the same protections under US law as any citizen, and can be prosecuted under that law as well. > [@](#): > > - I’m not suprised that VP Cheney dismisses Amnesty Internationl out of hand. They’re biased, ignorant, and all around anti-American…\* This ever-so-tiresome canard. As soon as someone criticizes the US, some idjit pops up to accuse that person of being “anti-American.” But even if AI was “anti-American,” how do you explain the fact that most of their findings are based on the government’s own documents? > [@](#): > > - (I do note anti-American as opposed to anti-Bush or anti-Administration, as they further accused the US government under Pres. Clinton of ‘cruel and unusual’ punishment because cable TV was taken out of FPC Norfolk.)\* Cite? > [@](#): > > - Did the fucker who penned that Gitmo was a ‘gulag’ note the lack of slave labor, the fact that they are not forced to grow their own food or starve, the fact that they get better medical treatment than they did in their own home countries, and that GitMo (if not for being a Marine base and a detention facility) would actually be a pretty nice spot (not that it is right now) as opposed to…say…Siberia?\* Well, technically, a “gulag” need not be located in Siberia, or enforce slave labor, etc. But I grant you that the language is inflammatory. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/54 "2005-05-31T14:14:15Z")
**Tom~** : As a straightforward matter of textual analysis, **fushj00mang** ’s analysis of the Geneva Convention and its definition of who is a POW, and thereby entitled to the protections of the G.C., is essentially correct. You are also correct that under that analysis, many of the men who fought for American independence in the Revolutionary War would not have been entitled to POW status under the terms of the G.C. Such is life under an antiquated legal document. The G.C. was inspired by the straightforward, army-on-army wars of the 19th through mid-20th centuries, not the guerrilla warfare and terrorism that has dominated world conflict since then. Its terms are ill-suited for such conflicts, even if its spirit is not. None of which excuses this administration’s conscious decision to abandon what ought to be matters of simple human decency and sound public and international policy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/55 "2005-05-31T14:16:33Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > As a straightforward matter of textual analysis, **fushj00mang** ’s analysis of the Geneva Convention and its definition of who is a POW, and thereby entitled to the protections of the G.C., is essentially correct. And what of the bits I quoted? IANAL, but it sure seems that they were stating that civilians have to be protected. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/56 "2005-05-31T14:16:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Guantanamo is the best recruiting argument that al Qaida could create. Have any of those released gone into the international lecture circuit? I wonder how much they make for a 30 minute speech at the Kandahar Lion’s club luncheon? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/57 "2005-05-31T14:27:43Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > Does anyone really take Amnesty International seriously? […] They’re biased, ignorant, and all around anti-American Well, [Sam Stone](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3346737) does, at least when they’re talking about the Sandinistas: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > The Sandinistas carried out thousands of political executions in the first few years of the revolution. […] This stuff has been heavily documented by the U.N. Human Rights Commission, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch. [04-28-2003] And [Dr Deth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3260699) does, at least when they’re talking about Palestinian groups: > [@Dr Deth](#): > > The PLPF is even recognized by Amnesty International as being an active terrorist org- including just last year- which regularly sets off bombs in Isreal. [04-09-2003] And [JohnBckWLD](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3271509) does, at least in the context of Saddam Hussein’s regime: > [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > [Now] that the regime in Baghdad is “out of power”, Eason Jordan, CNN’s President of International Reporting has admitted on today’s NY Times Edirorial Page that CNN kept quiet about “awful things that could not be reported” […] Couldn’t you have secretly forwarded the information you had to the UN, Amnesty International, et al? [04-11-2003] And [Tigers2B1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3152675) does, again when they’re talking about Saddam Hussein: > [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Here is a quote from an Amnesty International report with links showing Saddam’s use of torture and what are called “disappearances.” I suggest you take a look at the 4 links titled “Systematic torture,” “Repression,” “Disappearance” and “branding, amputation and the death penality.” [03-18-2003] And [DSeid](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=2821673) does, at least when they’re talking about Israel: > [@DSeid](#): > > Amnesty International says that Israel has stopped what was labelled as torture. […] I trust AI for accuracy. [01-08-2003] So there are quite a lot of people around here who certainly can’t be classified as “leftist” or “anti-American” who appear quite prepared to take Amnesty International seriously. If we’re willing to “trust AI for accuracy” when they’re saying bad things about Saddam Hussein or the Sandinistas, where do we get off suddenly treating them as a complete joke just because they’re saying some bad things about us? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/58 "2005-05-31T14:40:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If we’re willing to “trust AI for accuracy” when they’re saying bad things about Saddam Hussein or the Sandinistas, where do we get off suddenly treating them as a complete joke just because they’re saying some bad things about us? Because what they have to say only matters if they’re agreeing with whatever point WE (using the Royal WE here) are trying to make. Shit, **Kimstu** , I thought you paid better attention than that. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/59 "2005-05-31T15:20:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And what of the bits I quoted? > IANAL, but it sure seems that they were stating that civilians have to be protected. Of course. I was addressing soldiers/combatants, not true civilians. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/60 "2005-05-31T15:31:36Z")
Ah, good good. But as I see it, a large problem is that we have no fucking clue who’s a soldier, and who’s a civilian. I’ve seen estimates that upwards of 80% of those at Abu Graib were innocent. Many of them were tortured. That means innocent civlians were picked up, not afforded a trial, and abused in manners specifically prohibited. Wouldn’t that ammount to a breach of the GC? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157.md?page=4)