# Dick Cheney you worthless mound of excrement **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157 "2005-05-31T01:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/81 "2005-06-01T02:36:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So perhaps it could stand to be updated. But even though it may not violate the letter, surely we have violated the spirit in which it was intended? To the extent that it was intended to institutionalize a serious respect for the rights of people caught up in war, sure. To the extent that it was intentionally drafted to exclude combatants who don’t follow Western notions of acceptable armed conflict, I see no violation of the G.C.'s spirit in locking up terrorist suspects and non-signatory irregulars. If they’d wanted to include everyone within the POW protections, they easily could have done it. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/82 "2005-06-01T03:20:59Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > **Tom~** : As a straightforward matter of textual analysis, **fushj00mang** ’s analysis of the Geneva Convention and its definition of who is a POW, and thereby entitled to the protections of the G.C., is essentially correct. You are also correct that under that analysis, many of the men who fought for American independence in the Revolutionary War would not have been entitled to POW status under the terms of the G.C. Such is life under an antiquated legal document. Thank you Minty. And Tomndebb, my apologies for being obtuse. Upon review of your replies, you are essentially correct in your analysis of the American Revolution militias (when applied to the Convention.) > [@FinnAgain](#): > > IANAL, but it sure seems that they were stating that civilians have to be protected. Civilians do not take up arms. I would be wrong to ‘fight’ a man, woman, or child who is obviously carrying no weapon, but I would also be negligent to not detain and search them for such weapons (to a resonable point. I being a male, would not strip search a female. Things of that nature.) Non-combatants, eg civilians/chaplains/doctors/the wounded/the sick, are not considered POW’s, but are granted the same protections (as provided in Article 33 of the Convention.) That means they can be detained in the same way as POW’s or “enemy combatants,” but can be granted more liberties than true fighters. Kimstu: Actually, I distrust Amnesty Int’l on most grounds. The fact that they devote as much space to detainees of the US as they do to Sudan and it’s two civil wars says something. Villa: At least they, at that time, kept things in perspective. Back in the 80’s, they actually had something to anchor them in the center (eg, the USSR.) They drift more and more every time something happens. Its a shame, seeing as they used to be a valid and quality judge of the charachter of a nation. And good luck on your bar reviews! > [@Mockingbird](#): > > The my country right or wrong crowd needs to start being accountable and holding their leaders accountable. To what standard are we to hold our current (and past/future) administrations? In my opinion, if the President is unwilling to issue orders which will lead to the deaths of every non-American on the planet so that the USA can survive, then he is unfit to lead (that’s why there’s always some poor officer with the SIOP breifcase right next to him. IMO, it should not come to that, but in worst case scenarios, it must.) I’m sure that you have another standard by which you judge the administration (again, current/past/future.) In the end, the only real way that the Administration could be ‘taken to task’ is by either voting some new blood into office, or by impeachment. Zoe: Actually, I’m a member and supporter of the ACLU, when it addresses items here IN the United States. I’ve seen them on both sides of issues often enough that they’ve earned my respect (not that it counts for much.) Actually, I agree with the statements made by the DoD, FBI, USSC, and (gasp) UN Human Rights Comission. And please forgive the poor wording on my European anti-American statement. Miller: Thanks for that. It’s not like we didn’t already hash that one over more than a year ago in two threads. Like the dogpile, including linked articles where someone attempted to go off board and contact my CO (btw, someone did try, but when it hit my lieutenant’s desk, he looked at me specifically (since I was the only one paying $2.20/minute for my own internet connection) and said “Cut the shit” before signing the citation for my JFCOM.) Also, please remember where I was at the time (which does indeed influence my attitude toward this arguement.) BTW, did you ever figure out how you felt about the fact that I hold you and your opinions in high regard? 😉 Anyway, back to the OP (I apologize for hijacking this thread.) No, Cheney isn’t being a dick about this. He’s being American, and (gasp!) he’s the #2 guy in the Administration. Think he would (should, could, does) defend the actions that he takes? Did Kennedy apologize for the Bay Of Pigs? Did Johnson apologize for Vietnam? He’s doing what he thinks is right and good. That’s his job, ya’ know? ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/83 "2005-06-01T03:30:37Z")
> [@Fushj00mang](#): > > Like the dogpile, including linked articles where someone attempted to go off board and contact my CO… Gawd, I fucked up that line. It should read “Like the dogpile? How about the posts where someone suggested that we go off board and contact my CO…” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/84 "2005-06-01T03:33:29Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > Did Johnson apologize for Vietnam? No, but Robert S. McNamara not only appologized, he wrote a book about how they were wrong and why. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/85 "2005-06-01T03:51:38Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, but Robert S. McNamara not only appologized, he wrote a book about how they were wrong and why. Guin, but McNamara wasn’t the VP. If Rummy said “Amnesty Int’l is a bunch of doody-heads” then it’d work. Johnson, et al. Fucked Up. Bush, et al. allowed fuck ups and may be proven to have Fucked Up (now with improved capatal letters!) but we still haven’t seen the end of this thing. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/86 "2005-06-01T05:07:10Z")
Perhaps, but Johnson died in the early seventies, didn’t he? So he wasn’t around long enough to appologize. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/87 "2005-06-01T06:36:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Perhaps, but Johnson died in the early seventies, didn’t he? So he wasn’t around long enough to appologize. Very good point. I forgot all about that… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/88 "2005-06-01T14:19:30Z")
Well USAF Airman ? Care to defend your comments? Its sad that smart people think so simply about “isolating” terrorists I think its obvious that Gitmo was chosen for it not being US territory and in a sort of legal limbo… I think there are military bases in mainland US that could be just as secure as Gitmo. Especially those in desert like areas. No escaping. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/89 "2005-06-01T16:55:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, but Robert S. McNamara not only appologized, he wrote a book about how they were wrong and why. Given that, it’s most odd that he hasn’t felt a responsibility to speak out in public in any way about the Iraq fiasco. If he really had learned anything significant from Vietnam, the lessons would be even more obvious now than they were before the war (when those of us drawing them were derided as defeatist reflexive Bush-haters). [An uncharitable assessment:](http://www.afa.org/magazine/june1995/0695edit.asp) > [@](#): > > In his new memoir, In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam, he says that the Vietnam War was a mistake and that he knew it all along. We should have gotten out in 1963, when fewer than 100 Americans had been killed. When he and other US policymakers took us to war, they “had not truly investigated what was essentially at stake.” > > McNamara was Secretary of Defense from 1961 to 1968 in the Kennedy Administration, which led the US into the Vietnam adventure, and in the Johnson Administration, which widened the involvement to a war in which 58,000 American troops died. He was not some star-crossed functionary who went passively along with a policy he opposed. He was so fiery an advocate that Vietnam became known as “McNamara’s War.” His actions then and his statements now cannot be reconciled with honor. > > The duplicity has another dimension. News accounts bill In Retrospect as a stark admission of guilt, but an actual reading of it tells a different story. McNamara does, to be sure, acknowledge that he and his colleagues were “wrong, terribly wrong,” but the admissions account for relatively little of the book’s substance. The bulk of it explains how these were honest mistakes and not altogether the fault of McNamara and his friends. They were deceived, undercut, poorly served, badly advised, and distracted by “the staggering variety and complexity of other issues we faced.” > > Somehow, it is not altogether surprising that McNamara comes close to ignoring the rank and file of the US armed forces. In the entire book, there are just four brief instances, one of them in a footnote, when the troops cross his mind. The best he can bring himself to say for those killed in action is that “the unwisdom of our intervention” does not “nullify their effort and their loss.” [url=http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/vietnam/mcnamara\_4-17-95.html]The man himself said > [@](#): > > “I have no regrets about not speaking out then. I have deep regrets that we ever got involved or that I supported our involvement,” McNamara said. “Most of all, I want to try and look back on what I think were our mistakes – not all my associates agree they were mistakes – but … what I think were our mistakes, and **try to draw lessons so we won’t make the same mistakes again**.” Got anything to say about that last part _now_, asshole? Or are you still wrapped up in the excuse business? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/90 "2005-06-01T18:05:19Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > In my opinion, if the President is unwilling to issue orders which will lead to the deaths of every non-American on the planet so that the USA can survive, then he is unfit to lead. Am I the only one who thinks this comment is, um, totally fucking insane? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/91 "2005-06-01T18:07:56Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks this comment is, um, totally fucking insane? It’s not that we don’t think it’s insane. It’s just that, considering the source, it’s hardly unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/92 "2005-06-01T18:15:25Z")
No. I think it’s insane also. Why the hatred for every other being on the planet except for “Americans”? Should we just mow all the other countries down–for what purpose? Is that what it would take to feel safe, post 9/11? What of our allies? Kill them too, just to be sure? And what of the dissenters at home? Lock them away? Where does the slope end, then? Rid the country of non-Christians, perhaps? Or those who suffer from handicaps/chronic illnesses? What the hell? it is a disturbing (and also assinine) thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/93 "2005-06-01T18:17:59Z")
“…precious bodily fluids…” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/94 "2005-06-01T19:00:04Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > Did Kennedy apologize for the Bay Of Pigs? Yes, he did. [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy) His popularity actually went up after he owned up to his mistakes. > [@wiki](#): > > The incident was a major embarrassment for Kennedy, but he took full responsibility for the debacle. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/95 "2005-06-01T19:08:39Z")
It’s not just disturbing, it’s sociopathic. It sounds like something that Hitler or Stalin would have said. Did I just Godwinize the discussion? If so, screw it-that’s a really, really fucked up attitude. **ElvisL1ves** , I do agree with you about McNamara-I don’t think he’s evil, per se, and perhaps in his heart, he really believes what he said. But yeah, he should be on the evening news saying, “Bush, dude, take it from me-you don’t want to go down this path.” ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/96 "2005-06-01T19:09:11Z")
He didn’t say he hated every other being on the planet. He said the President must be willing to do whatever it takes to be sure this country survives. Which he must. Doesn’t mean he is looking forward to it or hoping to do it, just willing to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/97 "2005-06-01T19:10:34Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks this comment is, um, totally fucking insane? It’s funny that you should say that, because I started a thread a while back about the utter lunacy of nuclear war and there were people arguing that if the President doesn’t push the button then he’s nuts. So which one is it? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/98 "2005-06-01T19:11:35Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Why the hatred for every other being on the planet except for “Americans”? How do you get “hatred for every other being on the planet except for Americans” from: “if the President is unwilling to issue orders which will lead to the deaths of every non-American on the planet so that the USA can survive, then he is unfit to lead.” I mean, obviously, the President needs to be concerned about the welfare of Americans over foreigners. Where do you get hatred from? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/99 "2005-06-01T19:19:47Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > In my opinion, if the President is unwilling to issue orders which will lead to the deaths of every non-American on the planet so that the USA can survive, then he is unfit to lead. I agree. Has nothing to do with hatred or bodily fluids. I cannot think of a situation given the current world situation where this type of order would be necessary, but the president should be able and willing to issue one. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157/100 "2005-06-01T19:21:26Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > No. I think it’s insane also. > > Why the hatred for every other being on the planet except for “Americans”? > Should we just mow all the other countries down–for what purpose? Is that what it would take to feel safe, post 9/11? What of our allies? Kill them too, just to be sure? And what of the dissenters at home? Lock them away? Where does the slope end, then? Rid the country of non-Christians, perhaps? Or those who suffer from handicaps/chronic illnesses? What the hell? > it is a disturbing (and also assinine) thing to say. Posited: International politics is a prisoners-dilemma situation. If a country deliberately makes a policy of doing what will help everyone over what will just help them, they will gain the trust and co-operation of other countries. This trust and co-operation is almost always worth more than whatever minor advantage can be squeezed out by ignoring the interests of non-citizens. This a reasonable summary of why some of us don’t want US-at-all-costs policy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-cheney-you-worthless-mound-of-excrement/306157.md?page=6)