# Dick Durbin says sorry - will those who supported his comments say sorry too? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275 "2005-06-21T23:57:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/201 "2005-06-23T14:52:38Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You’d have much more valid of a point if **jayjay** wasn’t here spouting this nonsense: > > I’m well aware of a middle position between torture and hugs. It’s the wacko left that doesn’t seem capable of making the distinction. I don’t think jayjay’s position is incompatible with either of us. Asking that detainees have charges brought against them and torture stopped isn’t exactly a whacko lefty position. Try them and punish them if guilty, but we need to stop the torture committed in our name. I don’t see jayjay advocating hugging them. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/202 "2005-06-23T14:54:48Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Which is precicely where they ARE ! I would like to think that you are right. However, the best information that I have seen indicates that torture is indeed occuring. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/203 "2005-06-23T14:54:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s 22 pages long. It’s been debated on the boards before. All I recall is it being her word. Quote me a section that has more solid proof. If she had tape or video we would have seen it by now. > > O’Reilly’s version of the story: That she was shaking him down for millions of dollars by inventing these claims sounds a lot more plausible to me. There actuality was tape. Which I am sure that was purchased by Buill O’rReilly in the settlement. But lets not get caught up in that. I was willing to give Clintona pass on his philandering and other accusations because he did some good things and his personla life, as long as he did not break the law, is personal. And phone sex ain’t so bad…if you do it right… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/204 "2005-06-23T14:56:55Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > And phone sex ain’t so bad…if you do it right… Providing both parties were willing. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/205 "2005-06-23T14:59:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t think jayjay’s position is incompatible with either of us. Asking that detainees have charges brought against them and torture stopped isn’t exactly a whacko lefty position. Try them and punish them if guilty, but we need to stop the torture committed in our name. I don’t see jayjay advocating hugging them. That’s for the reader to decide, I guess. Any reasonable person who sees this stuff coming from lefties like **jayjay** would see it as “hug-a-thug” type thinking. It’s weak. It’s stupid. Nobody is going to listen to you guys as long as you keep on this track. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/206 "2005-06-23T15:03:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I would like to think that you are right. However, the best information that I have seen indicates that torture is indeed occuring. In a couple of instances. My a couple of people. Those responsible for torture in Abu Ghraib haven’t been defended by most people on the right. They are being punished. If similar abuses happened at Gitmo or anywhere else than I’ll join you in condemning them. But, asking that these terrorists be treated as criminals with rights like a US citizen accused of a crime? That’s just nuts. Our soldiers have enough to worry about not being blown up by car bombs and IED’s to be collecting evidence like some sort of CSI: Bahgdad episde. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/207 "2005-06-23T15:06:06Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That’s for the reader to decide, I guess. > > Any reasonable person who sees this stuff coming from lefties like **jayjay** would see it as “hug-a-thug” type thinking. It’s weak. It’s stupid. Nobody is going to listen to you guys as long as you keep on this track. First of all, I’m not a leftie. Okay, I’m left of center, but I’m not a socialist/communist. I’m fairly moderate, actually. Second of all, I’m not saying hug-a-thug. I’m saying if we have an actual reason to hold these people, we should put it out there so it doesn’t look like we’re just shutting people away forever. And I’m also saying that if what’s coming out of Gitmo and other military prisons is true, then there IS torture going on and I find the rightie tendency to minimize it to be appalling. “It’s only a little torture”! No, there is no such thing as “a little torture”. A little torture is too much. If we’re keeping them there to keep them out of the fray, then hold them. If we’re trying to extract information (and how much information do they actually think these people have about a very loose organization with a very volatile membership after three years cut off from their sources, anyway?) we need to use _reliable_, acceptable means of interrogation. Even IF these guys had useful information going on, torture is quite possibly the least reliable method of extracting it, and that’s been recognized by most civilized nations for YEARS now. Men who are being tortured will tell you whatever you want to hear to get it to stop. Oh, wait…whatever you want to hear… Never mind. That fits the Bush Administration’s information-gathering philosophy to a T… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/208 "2005-06-23T15:07:24Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s 22 pages long. It’s been debated on the boards before. All I recall is it being her word. Quote me a section that has more solid proof. If she had tape or video we would have seen it by now. > > O’Reilly’s version of the story: That she was shaking him down for millions of dollars by inventing these claims sounds a lot more plausible to me. O’Reilly’s lawyer admitted there were tapes. The reason we haven’t seen them is that O’Reilly bought them as part of the settlement. O’Reilly never claimed the woman had “invented” anything, by the way. He never denied a single one of her specifica allegations or said she was lying about anything (he couldn’t. She had tapes), he just accused her of “extortion.” An accusation which he explicitly _retracted_ after the settlement. If O’Reilly didn’t do that stuff, then why didn’t he deny it? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/209 "2005-06-23T15:08:34Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Nobody is going to listen to you guys as long as you keep on this track. Ok, I have learned my lesson. From now own, I will no longer complain when I see examples of kidnapping, since I want my party to get ahead. So what i this will leave my own party only slightly better then the other one? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/210 "2005-06-23T15:08:51Z")
If we only _know about_ a little torture, how much is really going on? That’s why a little is too much. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/211 "2005-06-23T15:33:36Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Ok, I have learned my lesson. From now own, I will no longer complain when I see examples of kidnapping, since I want my party to get ahead. Are you saying that Gitmo detainees are examples of kidnapping? :rolleyes: Hug-a-thug, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/212 "2005-06-23T15:39:21Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Are you saying that Gitmo detainees are examples of kidnapping? > > :rolleyes: > > Hug-a-thug, indeed. Do you have any evidence that they are examples of anything BUT kidnapping? Many of them are exactly that. They were rounded up in raids by Afghani militias (essentially gangsters led by warlords) and sold to the US for bounties. We bought them with no questions asked and have as yet to charge any of them with anything. If you want to claim these prisoners are bad guys or that they deserve to be locked uo, it is YOUR burden to prove it, not ours to prove they’re innocent. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/213 "2005-06-23T15:44:57Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > He was speaking metaphorically about the general attitude of liberals. > [@](#): > > Oh now this is just silly. > > He was giving his impression of the liberal attitude. You guys just have to fight this on a level of parsing words? You know there is no call for a cite here. Sort of how Dick Durbin was giving his general impression of the Republican attitude around treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and used the metaphor\* of the Nazi party to drive the point home? > [@](#): > > You are really grasping when someone has to point metaphor out to you when you are trying to pin someone down. I quite agree. \*Note from English 101: A metaphor says one thing is similar to or shares some characteristics with another thing; it does not say two things are identical in every way. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/214 "2005-06-23T16:14:00Z")
[QUOTE=Debaser] In a couple of instances. My a couple of people. Those responsible for torture in Abu Ghraib haven’t been defended by most people on the right. They are being punished. [QUOTE] Those **low-ranking** people responsible for the torture in Abu Ghraib are being punished. The people further up the ladder who approved and ordered it and looked the other way while it happened … have not even been charged, with exception of Brig. General Karpinski. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/215 "2005-06-23T16:20:00Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > …Lighten up. You should try it. May ease the shrill sound of your voice. Appreciate the offer, but I have standards. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/216 "2005-06-23T17:01:05Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Sort of how Dick Durbin was giving his general impression of the Republican attitude around treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and used the metaphor\* of the Nazi party to drive the point home? > > I quite agree. > > \*Note from English 101: A metaphor says one thing is similar to or shares some characteristics with another thing; it does not say two things are identical in every way. Some metaphors are apt, some are not. Therein lies the debate. Smarminess duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/217 "2005-06-23T17:03:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Appreciate the offer, but I have standards. Hee hee I see. You are trying to suggest I was OFFERING to have phone sex with you and you are turning me down. I think you misread my intentions. I could never have phone sex with you because I am sure there would be a fair amount of whining on your part and that is no good. In fact, I am not sure you are capable of having a conversation that would cause anyone to be aroused. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/218 "2005-06-23T17:16:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > … > **elucidator** hasn’t failed to mention the bullshit phone sex claims whenever he rants about O’Reilly ever since that story broke. I don’t care about that. I was questioning his quote… Actually, I hardly ever discuss Bill O’Reilly. Tell you what: you put $100 into the pot, and I’ll give you $10 for every time in the last month I’ve so much as mentioned Bill O’Reilly, in any context, whatsoever. I know for a fact his name has come up in a couple instances lately, so if you’re implication is correct, you should be money ahead. As to the quote: go here: [http://mediamatters.org/items/200506220006](http://mediamatters.org/items/200506220006) “Media Matters” is, precisely, a cite devoted to exposing right winger lies and exaggerations. They do, however, offer an audio clip. If you wish, you can listen. And if you wish, you can try to advance an assertion of fraud or forgery. But “Wild Bill” doth truly loathe “Media Matters”, and if they had done such, there is little doubt he would go utterly ballistic with self-righteous wrath. But he won’t. You know it, I know it. Because its the simple truth, and because he’s quite proud of himself. I don’t make shit up, **Deeb**. I don’t have to, the cockroaches of right wing lies are so thick, you can’t take two steps without crunching one underfoot. Now, would you prefer to kiss my ass, or go pound burdocks? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/219 "2005-06-23T17:19:48Z")
Damn. This is the wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/220 "2005-06-23T17:55:56Z")
In re: Karl Rove’s recent pus-eruption, this just in: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050623/ap\_on\_re\_us/rove\_speech](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050623/ap_on_re_us/rove_speech) \*\* Dems Say Rove Should Apologize or Resign\*\* Could it be? Can they, in fact, be growing some stones? Oh, frabjous day! I chortle in my glee! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275.md?page=12)