# Dick Durbin says sorry - will those who supported his comments say sorry too? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275 "2005-06-21T23:57:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/121 "2005-06-22T20:09:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I mentioned Libya, which we have not invaded, nor threatened to do so. Yet Ghaddafi has agreed to divest himself of WMDs. IIRC, he did so a few days after the invasion of Iraq. It is hard to avoid the suspicion that Ghaddafi took a good long look at what happened to Saddam, and decided it wasn’t worth the risk. In the same way his sponsorship of terrorism trended sharply downward after Reagan bombed the crap out of him after the terrorist bombing in Rome. If your causality is correct, which I frankly doubt (Libya had already been moving towards a more moderate relationship with the US before 9/11), that’s not an argument in support of civilian protest, that’s an argument in support of military intervention, which I have already conceded is the only really effective counter to despotic governments. > [@](#): > > But why should we talk about terrorist abuses abroad? For this reason - > > Ghaddafi’s infant daughter was killed in the bombing raid Reagan ordered. > > Isn’t that a dreadful thing? Yes, of course it is. But if we shrug our shoulders and say, “there is nothing we can do about foreign human rights abuses, and let’s not talk about it or worry about it”, we are then pushed to condemn, not Libya in the 80s for sponsoring terrorism, but the US for responding to it and killing a little girl. > > Same thing in Iraq. Were the incidents at abu Gharib dreadful things? Sure they were. Were they at all comparable to what Saddam did in the same prison for decades previously? No, of course not, and willful blindness to one side of the moral equation does nothing to balance it. > > And that’s what comparisons to the Nazis or the gulags do - they show a kind of willful blindness that distorts the thinking. > > It’s sort of like Mel Brooks’ description of the difference between tragedy and comedy. > Same thing here. Gulags and torture are where some assholes at one prison in Iraq play what amounts to nasty pranks on Iraqi prisoners. But Saddam’s security forces breaking people’s arms with clubs and cutting out their tongues and rape - > That’s nothing. Let’s not talk about it. > > Regards, > Shodan And this is why it is more important to talk about abuses committed by Americans than by Baathists. Because everyone already understands how terrible the acts committed by the Baathists were, but some people are laboring under the impression that the acts committed by Americans are nothing worse than a Mel Brooks comedy routine. That’s what needs to be talked about, because that’s the only atrocity here that can possibly be resolved by talking. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/122 "2005-06-22T20:12:08Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Horseshit. Whatever happened to…“Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Otherwise, don’t say it.” Horseshit back at you. Turds like you CHOSE to twist his words into something he didn’t mean in order to make a partisan point. That, for the record, is LYING. No matter how clear he had made his statement LIARS like YOU would have twisted his words to suit your own sick, perverted beliefs. “People” like you have RUINED this country’s reputation, either through your actions or through the your support for those actions, and I DEMAND that you recognize that you are LOUSY, STINKING LIARS WHO ARE BOUND AND DETERMINED TO DESTROY THE UNITED STATES and I DEMAND you apologize for it AND take actions to end the slide you have started. Anything less will prove that you are the scum I say you are. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/123 "2005-06-22T20:14:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > that’s the only atrocity here that can possibly be resolved by talking. Optimist… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/124 "2005-06-22T20:14:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A factoid which has been pointed out in these boards on any number of occassions, yet somehow seems to have eluded you. It has not eluded him. He has chosen to ignore the truth, making him a liar. I’ve had about enough of people who lie because the truth does not match their worldviews. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/125 "2005-06-22T20:14:58Z")
Don’t hold anything in, **Drop** , tell us how you really feel. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/126 "2005-06-22T20:16:54Z")
Luc, being from Minnesota I was taught at my mother’s knee to ALWAYS hold it in, but her mother had a saying that is appropriate here, though it was really about farting: “It’s better to do it and bear the shame than hold it in and bear the pain.” ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/127 "2005-06-22T20:31:23Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > C’mon, Newscrasher, answer the question. It’s the question Durbin actually asked. Whassamatta you? Well if you look at your question, there is obviously more than one answer. The United States has certainly had these things happen under its watch. And I really don’t have a problem with stress positions or the heat. Individuals who use cigarettes or beat prisoners should be, and have been punished. But I don’t think that the things you cited are honest comparisons to the regimes you mentioned. Neither does the rest of America…or most of it. [This story](http://rasmussenreports.com/2005/Gitmo.htm) from Rasmussen shows how 70% think the prisoners are treated BETTER than they deserve or about right. 14% think the treatment of Gitmo prisoners is comparable to the Nazi’s. Only 30% of DEMOCRATS think the prisoners are being treated unfairly. See most of America realizes we are at war. Yeah yeah we can debate the merits of the war in another thread. But most of us realize that these people are more than likely Very Bad People who would do harm Americans abroad and in the USA if they were given a chance. So we look at their captivity and decide it may be in fact a Good Thing. If these people had wanted to be protected by the Geneva Conventions, then they should have entered the battlefield under conditions that would have availed themselves of the Geneva Conventions protection. But as they are ununiformed combatants, they surrendered that right. They should count themselves lucky to be alive, as I am sure that they could have been killed very easily crawling out of wahtever shithole they were defending. That being said, I think that allegations of abuse at Gitmo should be looked into. and I believe they ARE being looked into. I simply think that comparisons to NAzi’s are unwarranted, and so does most of the rest of America. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/128 "2005-06-22T20:34:28Z")
And, of course, if most of America doesn’t have a problem with what’s going on in Gitmo, then obviously, there’s nothing wrong with what’s going on in Gitmo. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/129 "2005-06-22T20:40:43Z")
::Rubs hands together:: I haven’t done this in a long time. > [@me](#): > > Well if you look at your question, there is obviously more than one answer. The United States has certainly had these things happen under its watch. And I really don’t have a problem with the long hours or the heat. Individuals who use cigarettes or beat slaves should be, and have been punished. But I don’t think that the things you cited are honest comparisons to the country you mentioned. Neither does the rest of America…or most of it. > > [This story](http://rasmussenreports.com/2005/Gitmo.htm) from Punch shows how 70% think the slaves are treated BETTER than they deserve or about right. 14% think the treatment of slaves is comparable to the Huns. Only 30% of DEMOCRATS think the prisoners are being treated unfairly. > > See most of America realizes we are justified. Yeah yeah we can debate the merits of the concept of slavery in another thread. But most of us realize that these people are more than likely Very Inferior People who would worship their pagan god if given a chance, and act like savages. So we look at their captivity and decide it may be in fact a Good Thing. If these people had wanted to be protected by human decency, they should act civilized. But as they are don’t wear much clothes were they come from, they are not like us. They should count themselves lucky to be alive, as I am sure that they could have been killed very easily crawling out of whatever shithole they live in. That being said, I think that allegations of abuse at farms should be looked into. and I believe they ARE being looked into. I simply think that comparisons to Huns are unwarranted, and so does most of the rest of America. Translation: Just because a large group of people feel something is true, doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/130 "2005-06-22T20:47:45Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Y’all do know gulag prisoners were sentenced to a specific time. Once the time was pulled they got out. > So y’all are right…gitmo is not like a gulag. They have no idea when or even if they will get out. So Reeder I will ask you again. Which would you prefer? Gitmo or Gulag? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/131 "2005-06-22T21:04:34Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > ::Rubs hands together:: I haven’t done this in a long time.Translation: Just because a large group of people feel something is true, doesn’t make it true. Could someone translate this translation? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/132 "2005-06-22T21:11:21Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Horseshit back at you. Turds like you CHOSE to twist his words into something he didn’t mean in order to make a partisan point. That, for the record, is LYING. No matter how clear he had made his statement LIARS like YOU would have twisted his words to suit your own sick, perverted beliefs. “People” like you have RUINED this country’s reputation, either through your actions or through the your support for those actions, and I DEMAND that you recognize that you are LOUSY, STINKING LIARS WHO ARE BOUND AND DETERMINED TO DESTROY THE UNITED STATES and I DEMAND you apologize for it AND take actions to end the slide you have started. Anything less will prove that you are the scum I say you are. I’m not the one who is trying to make a partisan point, you so-called “scum” calling authority figure of the SDMB. Go back and re-read my two posts…I’m disgusted with both sides of the aisle, including the usual assortment of harpies here. So…NO EXCUSE FOR YOU! [/soup nazi] And keep your slanderous drivel for someone who really deserves it…right now, Bush and Durbin come to mind…they are the ones doing the twisting for partisan purposes, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/133 "2005-06-22T21:16:11Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Could someone translate this translation? Miller already did, a few seconds before I posted my comment. However, you are still here, so: > [@LEO: Literacy Education Online](#): > > The writer bases the argument on the belief that if an idea is held by a large group of people, it is true. Millions of people are (blank)ists, so (blank) economic and political theories are correct. [http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/acadwrite/logic.html#GENERALIZATION](http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/acadwrite/logic.html#GENERALIZATION) ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/134 "2005-06-22T21:21:12Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Miller already did, a few seconds before I posted my comment. However, you are still here, so:[http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/acadwrite/logic.html#GENERALIZATION](http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/acadwrite/logic.html#GENERALIZATION) OK----So does that mean that if a small group of people believe something is true it is likely…uhh…what? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/135 "2005-06-22T21:24:10Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > OK----So does that mean that if a small group of people believe something is true it is likely…uhh…what? What it means is that the popularity of any given proposition is not indicative of the rightness of said proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/136 "2005-06-22T21:24:11Z")
I’ll play along. If a small group holds a position, then that means absolutely nothing, same as with a large group. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/137 "2005-06-22T21:26:13Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > OK----So does that mean that if a small group of people believe something is true it is likely…uhh…what? It doesn’t mean anything other than what it says. Tens of thousands of people once believed it was true that the sun went around the earth. Didn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/138 "2005-06-22T21:26:22Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I’ll play along. If a small group holds a position, then that means absolutely nothing, same as with a large group. Right- so is there a point? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/139 "2005-06-22T21:32:12Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > I’m not the one who is trying to make a partisan point, you so-called “scum” calling authority figure of the SDMB. Oh yeah? Since when have I been an “authority figure,” HUH? Call ME names, will ya… > [@](#): > > And keep your slanderous drivel for someone who really deserves it Then I fucking APOLOGIZE, asshole! Oh, I forgot to top it off with some tears. [Durbin] Boo-hoo! I’m such a sorry excuse for a human being! [/Durbin] (big 😉 and bigger 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275/140 "2005-06-22T21:34:17Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Could someone translate this translation? Ah- the confusion came about because when I saw you had quoted my previous post, I didn’t notice you had amended it to reflect that the same argument could have been used by anti-abolitionists. I just read your reply. Again I think your argument here is technically accurate but intellectually dishonest. While a majority ( I assume) of people thought slavery was ok at some point, we now know that it was never ok and we were right to abandone the practice. The majority was wrong. But I could similarly say that a majority of Americans considered the attack on Pearl Harbor an act of war, and the majority would be right. And i think most people would still agree with that. The majority was right. Each matter has to stand on its own merits. Wether the majority agrees is not necessarily a marked of moral clarity. In the case of the treatment of the Gitmees, I think the majority has it right this time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-durbin-says-sorry-will-those-who-supported-his-comments-say-sorry-too/309275.md?page=8)