# Dick-slicers of the world, unite! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432 "2017-04-28T12:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/181 "2017-05-02T22:45:21Z")
A study of Kenyan men circumcised as adults? Please. Do you know what kind of [fucked up sexual proclivities](http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2013/10/19/dry-sex-women-at-pains-to-please_c844344) they have there? ETA: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > It seems likely the custom will die out, sure. So why, as a parent, mark your boy as a holdover from the past instead of being part of the wave of the future? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/182 "2017-05-02T23:06:25Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > cite for circumcision not harming men’s sexual pleasure: > [Adult Male Circumcision: Effects on Sexual Function and Sexual Satisfaction in Kisumu, Kenya - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3042320/) The surveys this study was based on (self reported studies are considered being among the weakest type of studies) were specifically intended to promote circumcision for HIV prevention. I don’t think anyone was going to be surprised what this study was going to find. > [@](#): > > The questionnairesused to assess potential sexual problems inthe two cited randomized controlled trials in Kenyaand Uganda were not presented in detail in the original publications.4,5 Rather than blindly accepting such findings as any more trustworthy than other findings in the literature, it should be recalled that a strong study design, such as a randomized controlled trial, does not offset the need for high-quality questionnaires. Having obtained the questionnaires from the authors (RH Gray and RC Bailey, personal communication), I am not surprised that these studies provided little evidence of a link between circumcision and various sexual difficulties.4,5 Several questions were too vague to capture possible differences between circumcised and not-yet circumcised participants (e.g. lack of a clear distinction between intercourse and masturbation-related sexual problems and no distinction between premature ejaculation and trouble or inability to reach orgasm). Thus, non-differential misclassification of sexual outcomes in these African trials probably favoured the null hypothesis of no difference, whether an association was truly present or not. [https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8626/334c257796e224184258822270adca5a55e2.pdf](https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8626/334c257796e224184258822270adca5a55e2.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/183 "2017-05-02T23:16:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Pffft…that’s the dumbest reason of all. :rolleyes: But congratulations, you’ve mollified a Bronze Age deity with your blood sacrifice. Hopefully the rabbi didn’t give your godson herpes when he was sucking his cock like a fucking depraved child molester. No fear. I understand there are some extremely traditional orthodox Jews who do that, but I’ve never seen it done. We mostly use a sterile scalpel, some sterile gauze, sterile foreceps, and a sterile “shield” to make sure they don’t cut too much. And the guy who does it washes his hands and wears sterile surgical gloves. That describes most of the procedures I’ve seen. But seriously, I think the “lick away a drop of blood” thing is extremely uncommon. I certainly wouldn’t have allowed that. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > A study of Kenyan men circumcised as adults? Please. Do you know what kind of [fucked up sexual proclivities](http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2013/10/19/dry-sex-women-at-pains-to-please_c844344) they have there? > > ETA: > > So why, as a parent, mark your boy as a holdover from the past instead of being part of the wave of the future? Because I’m a Jew, and he’s a Jew, and it’s going to be a major social impediment for any Jewish-identified man to be uncut for at least a few more generations, possibly much longer. You may not understand the emotional importance to Jews. As an example, a friend described how tight his bathing suit was by saying “you can see my religion”. And as mentioned, the actual damage to the child seems to be insignificant. If I weren’t Jewish, I wouldn’t have done it. I also subjected my children to traumatic vaccinations (dpt, in particular, was really bad when they were infants) and to periodic painful blood draws to test them for lead. Parents do stuff to children, sometimes unpleasant stuff. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/184 "2017-05-02T23:28:22Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > there are important social reasons for Jewish men to be circumcised Same with women of some cultures. > [@](#): > > and my research led me to believe that the sexual harm, if any, was very minor, Complications: [https://med.stanford.edu/newborns/professional-education/circumcision/complications.html](https://med.stanford.edu/newborns/professional-education/circumcision/complications.html) > [@](#): > > There is no nationwide, standardized, prospective system in the United States or Canada for collecting data on circumcision complications in children, not even for the most serious outcomes. Therefore, no one actually knows how many babies require re-hospitalization, intravenous antibiotics, or a blood transfusion; how many lose all or part of their penis (beyond the foreskin); how many need repeat surgery; or how many boys die as a result of having been circumcised. > **[Complications | Doctors Opposing Circumcision](https://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/for-professionals/complications/)** There’s also pain. I know men who have had circumcisions as adults that tell me it was painful. It’s undoubtedly more painful for an infant. A doctor’s advice on care for an uncircumcised baby describes how it’s attached differently than in an adult: > [@](#): > > Keeping the penis clean with soap and water helps reduce the risk of problems or infections. When your son gets older, his foreskin will separate from the tip of his penis. This is called retraction. It happens at different times for different boys, but most boys can retract their foreskin by the time they are 5 years of age. Don’t try to force the foreskin to retract before it is ready. You can damage the penis and cause pain and other problems. > **[What is Circumcision? | Family Doctor](https://familydoctor.org/circumcision/)** > > Circumcision is an optional procedure performed by a doctor shortly after birth to remove a baby’s foreskin from his penis. Do we have to have proof of harm anyway to do away with chopping a body part off of a newborn? There are harms and some possible harms from complications…but let’s do it anyway. Especially for Jews. > [@](#): > > If I weren’t Jewish, I wouldn’t have done it. I bet a lot of moms of various religions/cultures say the same about their circumcised daughters. I know, I know…it’s different. ---
**Author:** ![Unabashed\_Fascist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/c2a13f/32.png) [@Unabashed\_Fascist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unabashed_Fascist)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/185 "2017-05-03T00:14:55Z")
Well, this thread certainly is heated, but I’ll chime in anyway. Speaking as an man who was never circumcised, I can personally attest to the fact that I like my foreskin. It’s nice to have. It’s highly sensitive. In fact, as a 10 year old boy I first discovered masturbation by yanking on it (which was enough on its own). Not that anyone wanted or needed to know that. I cannot fathom why anyone would want to remove it. It certainly doesn’t hurt anything, cleanliness has never been an issue, and I’ve never had complaints from sexual partners. That just doesn’t compute for me. Why _wouldn’t_ you want it? Morally speaking it does seem a bit anti-ethical to perform a irreversible, cosmetic surgery on an infant. Especially when there is no benefit in doing so, and there absolutely is harm (just because you don’t remember, doesn’t mean it didn’t hurt like a bitch). Even if you were anesthetized, it would still be painful during your convalescence. Do babies not have body autonomy? Sorry, if I come across as narrow minded, but I really don’t understand how people can defend something (which to me) is so an abjectly amoral. How is it any different than say, cutting off a baby’s earlobes? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/186 "2017-05-03T00:25:50Z")
The main difference is that I would much more readily part with my earlobes than my foreskin. For me it’s more on a par with losing one eye. If some sadistic criminal forced me to choose between the two, I would have a tough time choosing and whichever I chose, I would probably regret it and think I should have gone the other way. But earlobes, a couple left fingers, even my whole left hand, I would easily trade away before my foreskin. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/187 "2017-05-03T00:26:43Z")
> [@Unabashed\_Fascist](#): > > Especially when there is no benefit in doing so [Benefits](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/circumcision-rates-declining-health-risks-rising-study-says/) [Benefits](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/circumcision-foes-should-cut-it-out-experts-say/) I’m more apt to trust the Mayo Clinic, AAP, AMA and other such organizations than [CuttingBabyWienersIsEvil.org](http://CuttingBabyWienersIsEvil.org) or related anti-circ bad science sites. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/188 "2017-05-03T00:31:55Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Do we have to have proof of harm anyway to do away with chopping a body part off of a newborn? There are harms and some possible harms from complications…but let’s do it anyway. Especially for Jews. Yes, you have to have proof of harm, the same way you need proof of harm to suggest it’s wrong to stick babies with needles. I’m not saying circumcision is important the way vaccination is important, or even that it should be the norm, but if we’re going to go down the road of calling it evil… you better have proof of harm. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/189 "2017-05-03T00:38:33Z")
Yet in the [healthiest](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-22/america-is-not-the-greatest-country-on-earth-it-s-no-28) countries in the world, circumcision is rare. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/190 "2017-05-03T00:39:04Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > The surveys this study was based on (self reported studies are considered being among the weakest type of studies) Amusingly, the few studies the anti-circ people cling to such as the oft-cited Belgium study are all based on self-reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/191 "2017-05-03T00:40:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yet in the [healthiest](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-22/america-is-not-the-greatest-country-on-earth-it-s-no-28) countries in the world, circumcision is rare. This is about the tenth time you’ve tried that line. Are you just trying to convince people that you don’t understand multiple factors or causation? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/192 "2017-05-03T00:41:02Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Yes, you have to have proof of harm, the same way you need proof of harm to suggest it’s wrong to stick babies with needles. > > I’m not saying circumcision is important the way vaccination is important, or even that it should be the norm, but if we’re going to go down the road of calling it evil… you better have proof of harm. Bullshit. We’re talking about cutting body parts off without consent. It’s mutilation whether people like that word or not. Not cutting off a body part is the default. Whether one calls it evil or not has no bearing on the requirement for proof of harm. If I call it evil, I have to prove harm and if I don’t, I don’t need to? Then the proof is magically not necessary? That’s irrational. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/193 "2017-05-03T00:49:22Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > This is about the tenth time you’ve tried that line. Are you just trying to convince people that you don’t understand multiple factors or causation? The healthiest countries don’t ust happen to be at the top of the rankings because of various random factors. They systematically seek out best health practices, and if circumcision really were one of those, you can bet they would adopt it. The findings of health benefits are mainly in places like Kenya, where–as I previously pointed out–people do some sick and twisted shit to women’s vaginas in preparation for intercourse, which tends to lead to transmission of HIV. In the West we don’t do that nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/194 "2017-05-03T00:55:24Z")
> [@Unabashed\_Fascist](#): > > Speaking as an man who was never circumcised, I can personally attest to the fact that I like my foreskin. It’s nice to have. It’s highly sensitive. In fact, as a 10 year old boy I first discovered masturbation by yanking on it (which was enough on its own). Not that anyone wanted or needed to know that. Isn’t that alone enough for people without proving harm (which has been done)? It’s part of a sexual organ. It has plenty of nerves. It has sensations people enjoy having. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/195 "2017-05-03T00:56:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The healthiest countries don’t ust happen to be at the top of the rankings because of various random factors. They systematically seek out best health practices, and if circumcision really were one of those, you can bet they would adopt it. That’s remarkably naive. But, yes, circumcision is exceptionally poor at preventing obesity, lung cancer, alcoholism, heart disease, drive-by gang shootings and hundreds of other non-penis related maladies that make up world health rankings. You certainly got me there. If you think findings of health benefits are restricted to sub-Saharan Africa, you haven’t done much reading into them. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/196 "2017-05-03T01:18:42Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Same with women of some cultures. > Complications: > > [Complications | Newborn Nursery | Stanford Medicine](https://med.stanford.edu/newborns/professional-education/circumcision/complications.html) > [Complications | Doctors Opposing Circumcision](http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/for-professionals/complications/) > > There’s also pain. I know men who have had circumcisions as adults that tell me it was painful. It’s undoubtedly more painful for an infant. A doctor’s advice on care for an uncircumcised baby describes how it’s attached differently than in an adult: > [What is Circumcision? | Family Doctor](https://familydoctor.org/circumcision/) > > Do we have to have proof of harm anyway to do away with chopping a body part off of a newborn? There are harms and some possible harms from complications…but let’s do it anyway. Especially for Jews. > I bet a lot of moms of various religions/cultures say the same about their circumcised daughters. I know, I know…it’s different. I’m sure it is the same for women and fgm. I believe there is an objective difference in the cost/benefit analysis. I think there are zero medical benefits, and, on average, more significant sexual disadvantages to fgm than to male circumcision. But anyone who goes to a culture and says “how can you mutilate your little girls”, without understanding the social significance, is doomed to failure. I’m less impressed by the pain. Methods of circumcision vary, but the traditional Jewish method (which is quite similar to what was described in that African study) is quick, and was less painful for my child than his dpt shot-- which left him feeling sick and miserable for a couple of days. Now, the cost benefit analysis for a dpt vaccine is much more compelling than for any cutting. But it points out that the issue is comparing the costs and benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/197 "2017-05-03T11:50:42Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > [Benefits](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/circumcision-rates-declining-health-risks-rising-study-says/) > [Benefits](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/circumcision-foes-should-cut-it-out-experts-say/) > > I’m more apt to trust the Mayo Clinic, AAP, AMA and other such organizations than [CuttingBabyWienersIsEvil.org](http://CuttingBabyWienersIsEvil.org) or related anti-circ bad science sites. Yeah, I like that misleading 60% reduction in HIV infection rate point. Here’s the [WHO](http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/)cite. They achieved this high percentage by education and promotion of safer sex practices - like putting on a condom…meaning 60% did put on a condom and 40% well, got HIV. Meanwhile in New York a few thousand [babies get Herpes](http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/07/health/new-york-neonatal-herpes/) due to circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/198 "2017-05-03T12:19:07Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Yeah, I like that misleading 60% reduction in HIV infection rate point. > Here’s the [WHO](http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/)cite. > They achieved this high percentage by education and promotion of safer sex practices - like putting on a condom…meaning 60% did put on a condom and 40% well, got HIV. > > Meanwhile in New York a few thousand [babies get Herpes](http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/07/health/new-york-neonatal-herpes/) due to circumcision. Have you read any of the studies? Both the circumcised men and the control group had education about and access to condoms. I don’t think the results are very relevant in the US, where the incidence of HIV is so much lower, but that’s pretty good science. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/199 "2017-05-03T12:22:26Z")
Also, your cite says two babies were infected with herpes, not thousands. The practice that leads to that isn’t circumcision, but a very unfortunate custom of “aftercare” for the wound, which I believe is quite rare. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432/200 "2017-05-03T12:53:30Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Have you read any of the studies? Both the circumcised men and the control group had education about and access to condoms. > > I don’t think the results are very relevant in the US, where the incidence of HIV is so much lower, but that’s pretty good science. The 60% number is basically across the border, including uncircumcised and circumcised men. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dick-slicers-of-the-world-unite/785432.md?page=11)