# Dictionaries do not win complex debates, you assholes. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322 "2002-04-07T16:16:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/1 "2002-04-07T16:16:53Z")
Not all of you, and of course there are times when it’s appropriate to yank out a dictionary, but I’m getting sick of Argumentum ad Dictionarium, in real life, and in GD. All dictionaries can do is help you agree on a common meaning for terms. They will NOT win a debate about anything other than the dictionary’s definition of words. A good useage of a dictionary in a debate “Um…are we arguing the same thing? I’m going by _this_ meaning of fletch. Are you?” A bad useage of a dictionary in a debate “[Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) defines feltching as (dictionary definition cut). So there!” Some examples? [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=108123) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=106169) for two examples. There are LOTS more. I say we take the next person who simply cuts and pastes a dictionary definition as a rebuttal, we stuff a copy of the OED up their ass, and let 'em look _that_ up! Fenris ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/2 "2002-04-07T16:25:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **A good useage of a dictionary in a debate "Um…are we arguing the same thing? I’m going by _this_ meaning of fletch. Are you?"** I won’t stand for anyone badmouthing [Chevy Chase movies](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089155) on my watch, bub! Or maybe you meant: Main Entry: \*\*fletch \*\* Pronunciation: 'flech Function: transitive verb Etymology: back-formation from fletcher Date: circa 1656 : FEATHER \ :d&r: ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/3 "2002-04-07T16:26:48Z")
This OED? OED \*abbr. \* _Oxford English Dictionary._ : D&R : 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/4 "2002-04-07T16:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > > A good useage of a dictionary in a debate “Um…are we arguing the same thing? I’m going by _this_ meaning of fletch. Are you?” > Fenris \*\* I love the film **“Fletch”**!! [sub]d & r[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/5 "2002-04-07T16:36:30Z")
\>\> A good useage of a dictionary … would be to check your spelling? yes? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/6 "2002-04-07T16:43:49Z")
Allow me to be the first not to duck and run. It’s a subset of semantic games, and it _is_ very annoying. Sure, there are plenty of times where the OED can clear things up, but catching someone with an incorrect definition or expressing a valid opinion in words that could have been better chosen does not necessarily end a debate. And what the fuck is this business with _beginning_ a debate with a simple definition? I _have_ reference books, and don’t remember signing up for any classes this semester. People who can’t phrase a debate in their own words should shuffle off to IMHO, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/7 "2002-04-07T16:50:53Z")
Love the film _Fletch_? Love the _FILM Fletch_!!! You shmucks. Go posthaste to your local library or bookstore and get the real thing. Gregory McDonald. It’s excellent, as are many of the sequals. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/8 "2002-04-07T16:53:07Z")
Sure, we’ve heard this before. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” “Dictionaries don’t win debates, people win debates.” Right wing loony. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/9 "2002-04-07T17:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > …we stuff a copy of the OED up their ass, and let 'em look that up! Would that be the 1st Edition, or the second **with** the Supplements?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/10 "2002-04-07T17:39:08Z")
Depends what you mean by “Dictionary”. From the Webster’s Collegiate: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: dic·tio·nary > Pronunciation: 'dik-sh&-"ner-E > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural -nar·ies > Etymology: Medieval Latin dictionarium, from Late Latin diction-, dictio word, from Latin, speaking > Date: 1526 > 1 : a reference book containing words usually alphabetically arranged along with information about their forms, pronunciations, functions, etymologies, meanings, and syntactical and idiomatic uses > 2 : a reference book listing alphabetically terms or names important to a particular subject or activity along with discussion of their meanings and applications > 3 : a reference book giving for words of one language equivalents in another > 4 : a list (as of items of data or words) stored in a computer for reference (as for information retrieval or word processing) So I think you’re wrong. \ ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/11 "2002-04-07T18:06:39Z")
I suppose a dictionary is appropriate when the debate topic is merely semantic, e.g., _Is the United States government, by pure definition, a terrorist organistation?_ This sort of wordplay exercise is pretty pointless IMHO. It reminds me of my late Uncle Abe, who used to enjoy debating, _Is Marilyn Monroe an Intellectual?_ With the wisdom gained from the SDMB, I finally realize that the proper answer is, “Yes,” provided _intellectual_ is defined as someone with big tits.😃 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/12 "2002-04-07T18:08:47Z")
well, you **know** I agree. Dictionaries can give a common usage of the term. Doesn’t mean, of course, that is the definitive answer. Words evolve and need to be seen in context. So, for example, when one uses the word ‘gay’ one may mean a host of different things, some of which are not in the dictionary (those in the under 22 set seem to be using it as a synonym to ‘lame’, ‘nonsensical’, ‘bullshit’ ‘I don’t like that’ sort of thing). And for some one to attempt to say that since [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) says this, that’s the **only** possible use of the word, is, well idiotic in TheReal Sense. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/13 "2002-04-07T19:00:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manda JO \* > Love the film _Fletch_? Love the _FILM Fletch_!!! > > You shmucks. Go posthaste to your local library or bookstore and get the real thing. Gregory McDonald. It’s excellent, as are many of the sequals. Especially when Inspector Flynn branches off into his own series. I still love the movie _Fletch_, too, though, because I probably would not have picked up with books without it. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/14 "2002-04-07T20:25:32Z")
First & foremost - yeah, I agree with you, Fenris. Lemme expand (more like blatantly hijack) for a sec. [/blatant hijack] I’m an English major. I’m fairly well-read & happen to know all manner of $10 words…Not only do I know 'em, but I use’em in conversation, much to many people’s dismay. I don’t use’em 'cause I think I’m some big shit. They simply pop into my brain as being the most appropriate word. I even use words that I (mistakenly) assume most college-aged people are familiar with. I figure they’re maybe $5 - $7 words. :rolleyes: Ticks me off that I have to dumb down what I’m saying because some folks - a great number, I think - refuse to expand their vocabularies for longer than it takes to complete the verbal section of the SAT. For example; I’m a member of my campus’ chapter of NYPIRG, an activist group. One day I was talking to a potentially interested guy about the different committes we have within the larger group (homeless outreach, environmental action, etc.). I told him he could “…complete the info card and check off any committes whose objectives are paramount to you”. As a friend put it, his eyes almost crossed when I said “paramount”. I had to explain what I meant, which I think ought not to have been necessary. My point is; perhaps some people, when they use seemingly obscure/unecessary words, are simply saying what they think. Others, who use OED definitions as replies to arguments/posts are simply trying to ‘sound intelligent’. [/end blatant hijack] 😛 ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/15 "2002-04-07T20:26:37Z")
Turns out **december** is right: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: 1in.tel.lec.tu.al > Pronunciation: "in-t[^&]l-'ek-ch&-w&l, -ch&l, -shw&l > Function: adjective > Date: 14th century > 1 a : of or relating to the intellect or its use b : developed or chiefly guided by the intellect rather than by emotion or experience : RATIONAL c : requiring use of the intellect > 2 a : given to study, reflection, and speculation b : engaged in activity requiring the creative use of the intellect > 3 a : of or relating to blondes with knockers the size of your head > > - in.tel.lec.tu.al.i.ty /-"ek-ch&-'wa-l&-tE/ noun > - in.tel.lec.tu.al.ly /-'ek-ch&-w&-lE, -ch&-lE, -shw&-lE/ adverb > - in.tel.lec.tu.al.ness /-'ek-ch&-w&l-n&s, -ch&l-, -shw&l-/ noun I’m impressed 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/16 "2002-04-07T20:46:08Z")
Cosmopolitan, you don’t know the half of it. I teach/am about to teach English, and during my student teaching I was forced to face just how small your **bright** ninth graeer’s vocabularies are. Screw reading literature, I don’t know how these kids watch TV: they must just blur out wohle exchanges that they don’t understand, and concentrate o n the pretty moving pictures. I used the word “confide” on a test for an advanced level English class. In both classes I had multiple people raising their hands and asking what it meant. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/17 "2002-04-07T20:52:06Z")
MandaJO: Don’t tell me these things…I’m currently preparing for a career as a secondary education English teacher. Am I doomed, DOOMED!? Nah. I’ll just have to whip the little bastards into shape, is all. Heh heh. Well, I’ll have to move first, I guess - corporal punishment’s not legal in New York, far as I know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/18 "2002-04-07T21:59:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > **"Dictionaries don’t win debates, people win debates."** Yes, but they are people with dictionaries! ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/19 "2002-04-08T02:14:12Z")
Maybe not your dictionary, but my dictionary kicks my butt during debates all the time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c2a13f/32.png) [@The\_Man\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_Who)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322/20 "2002-04-08T02:27:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kat \* > \*\* > > Especially when Inspector Flynn branches off into his own series. > > I still love the movie _Fletch_, too, though, because I probably would not have picked up with books without it. \*\* Flynn is definately the bomb, and _Confess, Fletch_ is the best of the series. I stopped reading at Fletch and the Man Who because the quality was going down I figured (or maybe the novelty was wearing off.) Hijack? You’re soaking in it. -Myron The Man Who [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dictionaries-do-not-win-complex-debates-you-assholes/102322.md?page=2)