# Did 85% of liberals support the invasion of Afghanisan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359 "2007-06-25T17:53:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/1 "2007-06-25T17:53:53Z")
I heard that a couple years ago somewhere (“self-described” no less), but I’d like to cite for it in case it’s incorrect. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/2 "2007-06-25T18:14:17Z")
I don’t know. I’d be curious to know how that support fluctuated over the years, if at all. Before that war started, there was a push by some liberals not to go into Afghanistan. MoveOn in particular was prominent in this effort. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/3 "2007-06-25T18:16:50Z")
It was pretty popular, the USA also had wide international support. However, the USA did not “invade” Afganistan. It came in deposed an unrecogized and illegal government during a time of civil war. No nation of any importance recognized the Taliban as the legal government of Afganistan. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/4 "2007-06-25T18:27:44Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] It was pretty popular, the USA also had wide international support. However, the USA did not “invade” Afganistan. It came in deposed an unrecogized and illegal government during a time of civil war. No nation of any importance recognized the Taliban as the legal government of Afganistan. [/QUOTE] 1. That doesn’t make it not an invasion. The Allies invaded France in 1944, even though the ruling entity was not legitimate and was not recognized as legitimate by anyone other than criminals and quislings. 2. The Taliban was recognized as a government by both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, which are certainly countries of some importance. And whether ir not it was extended diplomatic recognition it WAS in control of most of the country, exerted civil control, and had to be removed by force of arms, e.g. an invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/5 "2007-06-25T18:44:46Z")
I’d say this [column](http://www.correntewire.com/smacking_down_john_leo_of_real_clear_politics) represents the general liberal view on the invasion of Afghanistan and the war on terrorism. It’s a combination of “we hate terrorists” and “we think Bush is doing a bad job of fighting terrorists”. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/6 "2007-06-25T19:04:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] MoveOn in particular was prominent in this effort. [/QUOTE] Cite? All I can find on googling is reference to a [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) petition that the US “use restraint” when seeking justice for the attacks. Nothing about opposing our actual actions in Afganistan. As to whether it was an technically an invasion or not, I’d say not. Not because the Taliban wasn’t officially recognized as the gov’t, but because the US mainly acted in support of the Northern Alliance overthrow of the Taliban rather then doing the ground fighting ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/7 "2007-06-25T19:11:24Z")
No cite, but I wouldn’t be surprised. There were vanishingly few people who opposed the initial invasion. I supported it (liberal living in NYC at the time of the 9/11 attacks). I still do. I just wished we had focused all of our efforts there on wiping out Bin Laden and helping the Afghanis reorganize their country, rather than giving up to go wander into Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/8 "2007-06-25T19:13:35Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] It was pretty popular, the USA also had wide international support. However, the USA did not “invade” Afganistan. It came in deposed an unrecogized and illegal government during a time of civil war. No nation of any importance recognized the Taliban as the legal government of Afganistan. [/QUOTE] The 85% figure doesn’t surprise me. It was an extremely repugnant and reviled regime, and the 9/11 attackes simply gave us the final stimulus to do it. I’ve always wondered why the world at large allowed the Taliban to run things as long as they did. Afghanistan under their rule sounded like Margaret Atwood’s _The Handmaids Tale_, “now improved with extra poverty!”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/9 "2007-06-25T19:14:24Z")
The AUMF that was passed in 2001 and that set up the invasion of Afghanistan passed unanimously in the Senate, and had only 1 “no” vote in the House. I’d say that’s a pretty good measure of how well it was supported. This contrasts with the AUMF to invade in Iraq (both times) and which had considerable opposition in both Houses, even though both resolutions did pass. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/10 "2007-06-25T19:22:44Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I don’t know. I’d be curious to know how that support fluctuated over the years, if at all. Before that war started, there was a push by some liberals not to go into Afghanistan. MoveOn in particular was prominent in this effort. [/QUOTE] If you don’t know, then why did you answer? I’m looking for a number, not a stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/11 "2007-06-25T19:29:05Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Cite? All I can find on googling is reference to a [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) petition that the US “use restraint” when seeking justice for the attacks. Nothing about opposing our actual actions in Afganistan. [/QUOTE] I’ll second that request. This is GQ, **Mr. Moto** , where factual answers to questions are sought. If you can offer a credible cite for that claim, you need to withdraw it. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/12 "2007-06-25T19:39:54Z")
Rats. “Unclear Wording” was supposed to be in my “Reason for editing,” not my title. Unclear thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/13 "2007-06-25T19:41:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Before that war started, there was a push by some liberals not to go into Afghanistan. MoveOn in particular was prominent in this effort. [/QUOTE] MoveOn did not oppose the invasion of Afghanistan and I’m not aware of any other prominent liberals or liberal organizations who opposed it either. How about a cite for this. I’m aware that Karl Rove tried to spin a petition calling for “restraint in pursuit of justice” (which pre-dated 9/11) as opposing the action in Afghanistan (an inference which MoveOn promptly corrected) and while it wouldn’t surprise me if “Teh MoveOn was against going to Afghanistan!!111” has become a meme in the right wing media, it’s totally false. Ad to the OP, I would not find figure surprising at all. If anything I think it sounds low. The national, lynch mob mentality immediately following 9/11 cut across all politcal spectrums. To voice public disapproval of going to Afghanistan at the time was to be seen as a nutcase and possibly as a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/14 "2007-06-25T19:58:18Z")
Somewhere there must be an acutal opinon poll taken of support for the invasion broken down by political affiliation, but hell if I can find it. Anyone now a website that archives opinion polls? Must be one somewhere, but hell if I can find it. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/15 "2007-06-25T19:58:43Z")
Let me do Mr. Moto’s homework for him. Following from articles re: Rove’s statement that “In the wake of 9/11, conservatives believed it was time to unleash the might and power of the United States military against the Taliban; in the wake of 9/11 liberals believed it was time to submit a petition,” I tracked down a purported copy of the original letter from MoveOn founder Wes Boyd via the MoveOn mailing list: > **[Fw: Justice, not Terror](http://www.mail-archive.com/listening-l@zrz.tu-berlin.de/msg04246.html)** > [@](#): > > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: “Wes Boyd” > \<"[moveon-help-291-68431-jBGW32MFhU66qgHCpsGwyw"@list.moveon.org](mailto:moveon-help-291-68431-jBGW32MFhU66qgHCpsGwyw%22@list.moveon.org)\> > To: “Bruce Morgen” \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\> > Date: 17 Sep 2001 20:26:09 -0000 > Subject: Justice, not Terror > Message-ID: \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\> > Received: from [mx7.boston.juno.com](http://mx7.boston.juno.com) ([mx7.boston.juno.com](http://mx7.boston.juno.com) [64.136.24.129]) > by [m8.boston.juno.com](http://m8.boston.juno.com) with SMTP id AAA74N4RLAG4UGQS > for \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\> (sender > \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\>); > Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:23:54 -0400 (EST) > Received: from [list.moveon.org](http://list.moveon.org) ([list.moveon.org](http://list.moveon.org) [209.249.130.200]) > by [mx7.boston.juno.com](http://mx7.boston.juno.com) with SMTP id AAA74N4RLACN4R6A > for \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\> (sender > \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\>); > Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:23:54 -0400 (EST) > Received: (qmail 19778 invoked by uid 518); 17 Sep 2001 20:26:09 -0000 > Return-Path: > \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\> > Message-ID: \<[EMAIL PROTECTED]\> > > Dear Friend of MoveOn, > > Thousands of you participated in our online discussion this weekend. > The heartfelt and clear-headed suggestions are a real breath of > fresh air from the drumbeat for war we hear on TV. > > It’s important to let our leaders know that Americans won’t support > playing into the terrorists’ hands by responding with escalating > violence. > > [http://www.moveon.org/justice/](http://www.moveon.org/justice/) > > One of the top-rated suggestions was to send the following letter > to the President and Congressional Representatives: > > To combat terrorism, we must act in accordance with a high > standard that does not disregard the lives of people in other > countries. If we retaliate by bombing Kabul and kill people > oppressed by the Taliban dictatorship who have no part in > deciding whether terrorists are harbored, we become like the > terrorists we oppose. We perpetuate the cycle of retribution > and recruit more terrorists by creating martyrs. Please do > everything you can to counsel patience as we search for those > responsible. Please ensure that our actions reflect the > sanctity of human life everywhere. Thank you. > > We’ve mounted a petition campaign, called “Justice, not Terror”, > that delivers exactly this message. Please add your voice at: > > [http://www.moveon.org/justice/](http://www.moveon.org/justice/) > > Your participation is extremely important in breaking the myth > that Americans support senseless bloodletting. Send an instant > message to Washington and tell your friends at: > > [http://www.moveon.org/justice/](http://www.moveon.org/justice/) > > If you haven’t participated in our discussion forum, go to: > > [http://www.actionforum.com/forum/index.html?forum\_id=220](http://www.actionforum.com/forum/index.html?forum_id=220) > > The thoughts posted are really wonderful. It gives me renewed > hope for our future. > > Sincerely, > > - Wes Boyd > [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) > September 17, 2001 > > “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending > spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead > of diminishing evil, it multiplies it… Through violence you > may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, > violence merely increases hate… Returning violence for > violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a > night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out hate; > only love can do that.” > > - Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. > > * * * > > This is a message from [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) > If you wish to remove yourself from this list, please visit > our subscription management page at > [Manage Your Communication Preferences](http://www.moveon.org/subscrip/i.html?id=291-68431-jBGW32MFhU66qgHCpsGwyw) > > * * * ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/16 "2007-06-25T20:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Cite? All I can find on googling is reference to a [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) petition that the US “use restraint” when seeking justice for the attacks. Nothing about opposing our actual actions in Afganistan. [/QUOTE] This is the full text of the petition mentioned: > [@](#): > > We, the undersigned, citizens and residents of the United States of America and of countries around the world, appeal to the President of The United States, George W. Bush; to the NATO Secretary General, Lord Robertson; to the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi; and to all leaders internationally to use moderation and restraint in responding to the recent terrorist attacks against the United States. We implore the powers that be to use, wherever possible, international judicial institutions and international human rights law to bring to justice those responsible for the attacks, rather than the instruments of war, violence or destruction. > > Furthermore, we assert that the government of a nation must be presumed separate and distinct from any terrorist group that may operate within its borders, and therefore cannot be held unduly accountable for the latter’s crimes. It follows that the government of a particular nation should not be condemned for the recent attack without compelling evidence of its cooperation and complicity with those individuals who actually committed the crimes in question. > > Innocent civilians living within any nation that may be found responsible, in part or in full, for the crimes recently perpetrated against the United States, must not bear any responsibility for the actions of their government, and must therefore be guaranteed safety and immunity from any military or judicial action taken against the state in which they reside. > > Lastly and most emphatically, we demand that there be no recourse to nuclear, chemical or biological weapons, or any weapons of indiscriminate destruction, and feel that it is our inalienable human right to live in a world free of such arms. [The archived petition is here.](http://web.archive.org/web/20030822152900/http://www.moveon.org/peace/petition/petition.html) I didn’t mean to kick this into debate territory, just that it is clear that there was some small minority of liberals that opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. This petition certainly does, and about 700,000 people signed it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/17 "2007-06-25T20:09:21Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] This is the full text of the petition mentioned: [The archived petition is here.](http://web.archive.org/web/20030822152900/http://www.moveon.org/peace/petition/petition.html) I didn’t mean to kick this into debate territory, just that it is clear that there was some small minority of liberals that opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. This petition certainly does, and about 700,000 people signed it. [/QUOTE] No, this petition does NOT oppose the invasion of Afghanistan, as MoveOn made clear in its response to the smear by Rove. Your assertion was factually incorrect. Since this is GQ, the polite thing to do would be to retract and apologize, not to repeat the same false allegation all over again. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/18 "2007-06-25T20:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] This is the full text of the petition mentioned: [The archived petition is here.](http://web.archive.org/web/20030822152900/http://www.moveon.org/peace/petition/petition.html) I didn’t mean to kick this into debate territory, just that it is clear that there was some small minority of liberals that opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. This petition certainly does, and about 700,000 people signed it. [/QUOTE] I didn’t see the word Afghanistan anywhere in that document. It is certainly suggestive of lack of support of the invasion, but it’s not conclusive. And an “on-line signature” is as valid as an on-line poll-- ie, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/19 "2007-06-25T20:20:45Z")
As hard as it is for me to believe, I don’t think Rove was really that far off base. Again, from that MoveOn e-mail: > [@](#): > > **It’s important to let our leaders know that Americans won’t support > playing into the terrorists’ hands by responding with escalating > violence.** > > … > > To combat terrorism, we must act in accordance with a high > standard that does not disregard the lives of people in other > countries. **If we retaliate by bombing Kabul and kill people > oppressed by the Taliban dictatorship who have no part in > deciding whether terrorists are harbored, we become like the > terrorists we oppose.** We perpetuate the cycle of retribution > and recruit more terrorists by creating martyrs. **Please do > everything you can to counsel patience as we search for those > responsible. Please ensure that our actions reflect the > sanctity of human life everywhere.** Thank you. > > We’ve mounted a petition campaign, called “Justice, not Terror”, > that delivers exactly this message. Please add your voice at: > > [http://www.moveon.org/justice/](http://www.moveon.org/justice/) > > **Your participation is extremely important in breaking the myth > that Americans support senseless bloodletting.** Send an instant > message to Washington and tell your friends at: Not totally “Don’t Invade Afghanistan.” More like “Don’t kill innocent civilians in the process of hunting down Bin Laden.” But could easily be interpreted as anti-invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359/20 "2007-06-25T20:21:30Z")
It is simply more proof that not all liberals supported the Afghanistan invasion. But since we knew that already, not a really big deal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-85-of-liberals-support-the-invasion-of-afghanisan/409359.md?page=2)