# Did a show ever improve after the departure of a star? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 18, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308 "2008-06-18T05:35:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/61 "2008-06-19T20:26:09Z")
I’m going to go against consensus here and state for the record that I liked **M_A_S\*H** much, much better with Blake, Trapper and Maj. Burnes. After they left the show (and because of Alan Alda assuming a larger role in determining the direction of the show) it spent far too much time being maudlin and became much more drama orientated. It was still a comedy, but it was more of a comedy/drama. I didn’t like it as much. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/62 "2008-06-19T20:46:08Z")
I liked MST3k with Joel, but I thought it improved greatly after Mike took over. Joel sometimes seemed to think his audience was primarily children, Mike apparently knew better, so the zingers got sharper. He brought more tubular boobular joy to the show. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/63 "2008-06-19T21:07:26Z")
In the second season of [_Newhart,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhart) housekeeper Leslie Vanderkellen was replaced by her cousin Stephanie. It was in improvement: Leslie was too perfect to be funny. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/64 "2008-06-19T21:12:42Z")
I’ll echo the MASH comments, and add that Night Court was much improved when Charles Robinson took over the court clerk role, and more so when Markie Post took over the public defender role. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/65 "2008-06-19T21:57:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] In the second season of [_Newhart,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhart) housekeeper Leslie Vanderkellen was replaced by her cousin Stephanie. It was in improvement: Leslie was too perfect to be funny. [/QUOTE] I actually lost interest in the show first with Stephanie and then completely when the little guy from [Bosom Buddies](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0778642/) showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/66 "2008-06-20T01:10:27Z")
[QUOTE=Soul] … Elisabeth Röhm…was wooden and unwatchable in that role. [/QUOTE] Worst “actress” I’ve ever seen. Including grade school plays. Nice to read farther down the thread she stinks up several joints, as well as L&O. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/67 "2008-06-20T01:37:34Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] I’ll echo the MASH comments, and add that Night Court was much improved when Charles Robinson took over the court clerk role [/QUOTE] There was a clerk before Mac? I remember the previous lawyers, but I only remember Mac. I do agree that it improved with the switch to Christine and someone else’s comment about it improving again with the addition of Ros, though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/68 "2008-06-20T01:44:22Z")
[QUOTE=Tengu] There was a clerk before Mac? I remember the previous lawyers, but I only remember Mac. I do agree that it improved with the switch to Christine and someone else’s comment about it improving again with the addition of Ros, though. [/QUOTE] There was a woman in the first season, Court Clerk Lana Wagner played by [Karen Austin](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0042438/) Odd piece of Trivia I found today on Night Court, when Reinhold Weege was casting for Judge Harry Stone, he already had the character written as a Mel Torme fan. The fact that the role went to \*\*Harry \*\* Anderson who is a Mel Torme nut was a happy coincidence according to Reinhold. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/69 "2008-06-20T01:59:26Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] There was a woman in the first season, Court Clerk Lana Wagner played by [Karen Austin](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0042438/) [/quote] :smack: D’oh, I remember her now. I think I’d conflated her with the first defence attorney. > [@](#): > > Odd piece of Trivia I found today on Night Court, when Reinhold Weege was casting for Judge Harry Stone, he already had the character written as a Mel Torme fan. The fact that the role went to \*\*Harry \*\* Anderson who is a Mel Torme nut was a happy coincidence according to Reinhold. Funny, I’d have thought it was written for him - I’m guessing it was pretty quickly rewritten, given how much it resembles Harry the Hat and Anderson’s stage persona. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/70 "2008-06-20T02:33:26Z")
[QUOTE=Tengu] :smack: D’oh, I remember her now. I think I’d conflated her with the first defence attorney. Funny, I’d have thought it was written for him - I’m guessing it was pretty quickly rewritten, given how much it resembles Harry the Hat and Anderson’s stage persona. [/QUOTE] It gets weirder. It was hard to find, but there was a summer replacement series/tryout in the mid 70s that was the first try at making Night Court. It was by the people that did Barney Miller and Night Court. I finally found it, it was called “Sirota’s Court” and took place in a NYC Night Court. The judge was Michael Constantine and either the clerk or the PD was a cute Red Head that must have been played by Cynthia Harris. Her nickname on the show was Carrot Top. 😃 I remember the show being good and IMDB says it nominated for a Golden Globe and an Emmy. I would guess from memory they had either 4 or 6 episodes. I think this was common in the 70s. They would try out shows in the summer. Even All in the Family might have starter this way. I just remembered something. This was tried out at the same time as CPO Sharkey and for some reason that was picked up and this little gem was not until it was remade years later. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/71 "2008-06-23T03:34:13Z")
I can’t stand Suzanne Sommers and think **Three’s Company** was much better after she left. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/72 "2008-06-23T03:41:56Z")
[QUOTE=Freudian Slit] “Cheers” was the first thing that came to my mind. Yeah, the whole Sam/Diane thing was cute, but I found Shelley Long irritating as hell. I much preferred Kirstie Alley as Rebecca. [/QUOTE] Ditto, Shelly Long was annoying as all get out. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/73 "2008-06-23T05:09:05Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] I’m going to go against consensus here and state for the record that I liked **M_A_S\*H** much, much better with Blake, Trapper and Maj. Burnes. After they left the show (and because of Alan Alda assuming a larger role in determining the direction of the show) it spent far too much time being maudlin and became much more drama orientated. It was still a comedy, but it was more of a comedy/drama. I didn’t like it as much. [/QUOTE] I was about to post just that. McLean Stevenson was irreplaceable and when Wayne Rogers left it became the Alan Alda Show in everything but title. Alda smothered the show with his unending preachiness. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/74 "2008-06-23T05:55:39Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] **MASH** got incrementally better when Wayne Rogers, McLean Stevenson and Larry Linville left. [/QUOTE] Yes, all three were replaced by more interesting, more rounded characters. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/75 "2008-06-23T08:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=CanvasShoes] Ditto, Shelly Long was annoying as all get out. [/QUOTE] Which made Frasier’s put down of her in his own show a bit more pleasing 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/76 "2008-06-23T09:17:40Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] I think **The Adventures of Superman** improved when Noel Neill replaced Phyllis Coates. Neill’s Lois Lane was more fun. If ratings mean anything, **Toma** improved when Tony Musante left and was replaced by Robert Blake (and the show renamed to **Baretta** ). While I disagree strongly, most people think **Mission: Impossible** improved when Peter Graves joined the cast (so much so that few people realize that Stephen Hill originated the role of the IMF leader). One can argue, but most people think the best Doctor Who is someone other than William Hartnell; there are nine different points where you can say the show improved by a change in the lead. Similarly, **Blake’s 7** survived and thrived after the loss of Blake as well as other members of the seven during the course of the show. [/QUOTE] Blakes 7 is definitely better in the episodes where Avon took over as the lead. I think they wanted Tarrant to kind of replace Blake, but Avon was so much better of a character. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/77 "2008-06-23T12:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin] Which made Frasier’s put down of her in his own show a bit more pleasing 🙂 [/QUOTE] I’ve seen most of Frasier several times and I don’t remember the specific. Care to enlighten? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/78 "2008-06-23T14:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=aldiboronti] I was about to post just that. McLean Stevenson was irreplaceable and when Wayne Rogers left it became the Alan Alda Show in everything but title. Alda smothered the show with his unending preachiness. [/QUOTE] MASH did take a turn for the preachy, but I don’t think it was the cast changes that did it. It was Alda’s doing and it would have gone that way regardless of who was in the supporting roles. I really hated Frank Burns. He was a ridiculous cartoon, as subtle as a “Bush=Hitler” sign. Also, how could the hospital have such an exemplary record if one of it’s four surgeons is incompetent? Winchester made a much better foil. He was a snob and a dick, but also a great surgeon. And he got to show a compassionate side too, with the stuttering patient or the piano player who’d lost an arm. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/79 "2008-06-23T14:36:08Z")
Major Margaret “Hot Lips” Hoolihan went from being a shrew of a woman to being a subservient little nurse. She suffered the most from “Aldaism.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308/80 "2008-06-23T14:52:22Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] I really hated Frank Burns. He was a ridiculous cartoon, as subtle as a “Bush=Hitler” sign. Also, how could the hospital have such an exemplary record if one of it’s four surgeons is incompetent? Winchester made a much better foil. He was a snob and a dick, but also a great surgeon. And he got to show a compassionate side too, with the stuttering patient or the piano player who’d lost an arm. [/QUOTE] See, I never saw Frank as incompetent. He was just totally outshined by the likes of Hawkeye and Trapper. On a scale of one to ten, a seven isn’t too bad, unless he’s sharing the room with a couple nines. That said, of course Winchester was a totally superior character from pretty much every perspective. But I don’t think Frank was necessarily a bad surgeon. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-a-show-ever-improve-after-the-departure-of-a-star/453308.md?page=5)