# Did any American in the past 50 years ever really think that Jews have horns? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143 "2011-09-04T05:28:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/81 "2011-09-07T18:28:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Quote=RickJay] > (This in response no the “No Jews/Blacks/Irish or Dogs Allowed” claim. > > Got a photo? This claim is frequently made, and very, very rarely supported with evidence. > > At one time and place perhaps there was such a sign, but the claim that they were common is bullshit, or else there’d be pictures of lots of them. Irish I know for sure from family lore (and not joking). My mom’s side of my family is all Irish. The oldtimers told me they personally saw signs reading “Help wanted. No Irish need apply.” "“White only” signs goes without saying. I don’t know about “no Jews.” [/QUOTE] I think **RickJay** was asking specifically about the “No [insert ethnic group] or Dogs” signs. I’ve heard about them, but have never seen one that had the “or Dogs” part that wasn’t intended to be a joke.[sup]1[/sup] 1 - Humor not included. ---
**Author:** ![Nightfall1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@Nightfall1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightfall1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/82 "2011-09-07T18:37:21Z")
About signs. I’m 58 years old. When I was under ten there was a sign at a public beach at Lake Delevan Wis. that said NO JEWS ALLOWED. A friend of mine who is ten years older than me told me the small town he lived as a kid had a banner across the state highway that said NO NIGGERS AFTER DARK. This was in central Illinois. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/83 "2011-09-07T19:14:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Irish I know for sure from family lore (and not joking). My mom’s side of my family is all Irish. The oldtimers told me they personally saw signs reading “Help wanted. No Irish need apply.”" Ignorance fought. “No Irish Need Apply”: A Myth of Victimization - [http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm](http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm) > [@](#): > > Irish Catholics in America have a vibrant memory of humiliating job discrimination, which featured omnipresent signs proclaiming “Help Wanted–No Irish Need Apply!” No one has ever seen one of these NINA signs because they were extremely rare or nonexistent. The market for female household workers occasionally specified religion or nationality. Newspaper ads for women sometimes did include NINA, but Irish women nevertheless dominated the market for domestics because they provided a reliable supply of an essential service. Newspaper ads for men with NINA were exceedingly rare. > > … > > In the entire file of the New York Times from 1851 to 1923, there are two NINA ads for men, one of which is for a teenager. Computer searches of classified help wanted ads in the daily editions of other online newspapers before 1923 such as the Booklyn Eagle, the Washington Post and the Chicago Tribune show that NINA ads for men were extremely rare–fewer than two per decade. The complete absence of evidence suggests that probably zero such signs were seen at commercial establishments, shops, factories, stores, hotels, railroads, union halls, hiring halls, personnel offices, labor recruiters etc. anywhere in America, at any time. NINA signs and newspaper ads for apartments to let did exist in England and Northern Ireland, but historians have not discovered reports of any in the United States, Canada or Australia. T > > … > > The fact that Irish vividly “remember” NINA signs is a curious historical puzzle. There are no contemporary or retrospective accounts of a specific sign at a specific location. No particular business enterprise is named as a culprit. No historian, 2 archivist, or museum curator has ever located one 3 ; no photograph or drawing exists. 4 No other ethnic group complained about being singled out by comparable signs. Only Irish Catholics have reported seeing the sign in America—no Protestant, no Jew, no non-Irish Catholic has reported seeing one. Were there really once signs saying “No dogs or Jews/Mexicans?” - [Were there really once signs saying "No dogs or Jews/Mexicans?" - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=330749) From our own **samclem** at the end of the above-linked thread: > [@samclem](#): > > I’ve spent hours searching my electronic newspaper databases. Not just this last few days, but in the past. And I’m sure other researchers have also. > > There were the occasional “No Irish need apply” domestic ads in US papers from the turn of the century, but only occasional. Most ads were desparate for help. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/84 "2011-09-07T19:19:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [19th Century Ad from NY Times containing “no Irish need apply.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NINA-nyt.JPG) From [http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm](http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm) > [@](#): > > See the ad in The New York Times of March 25, 1854 shown below–this is the only NINA ad for men anyone has ever found; also see Sept. 21, 1859. The Times of Jan 9, 1854, had an ad for servants from a “Protestant Employment Society.” A houseworker ad on February 10, 1858 specified, “Only Scotch need apply.” For comparison, the search engine turned up 25 instances of the phrase “respectable young girl” in 1861 alone, plus 34 entreaties for a “first rate cook” that year. It turned up a solitary ad that specified “only Americans need apply”—for a governess position in Kentucky. New York ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/85 "2011-09-07T19:27:45Z")
> [@Nightfall1](#): > > About signs. I’m 58 years old. When I was under ten there was a sign at a public beach at Lake Delevan Wis. that said NO JEWS ALLOWED. A friend of mine who is ten years older than me told me the small town he lived as a kid had a banner across the state highway that said NO NIGGERS AFTER DARK. This was in central Illinois. The same thing is frequently claimed about Sunnyside Beach in Toronto; there used to be “NO JEWS” signs displayed, even up into the 1950s. And not a single photo of such a sign exists. How would they have enforced such a law, anyhow? Pecker checks? Nazi-style facial proportion measurements? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/86 "2011-09-07T19:33:49Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Ignorance fought. Ah, memory vs History. Always a humbling experience. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/87 "2011-09-08T03:23:23Z")
Thanks elmwood. That was precisely the point I was making earlier when I posted the same Jensen cite you did. The “Irish as victim” lens is only so useful, the reality, as always so much more complex. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/88 "2011-09-08T03:52:41Z")
Not that Wiki is the end-all-be-all, but this piece on [antisemitism in Canada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Canada) was interesting: > [@](#): > > Clubs and resorts in Canada also denied Jews access with their “exclusive clientele” policies. The St. Andrews Golf Club in Toronto sported a sign that said, “This course is restricted to Gentiles only. Please do not question this policy.” A Montreal resort boasted a sign that read “Christians Only,” but also employed someone who “walked along the beach with a megaphone, politely inquiring whether there was a Jew present despite the warning, and asking him to leave as quickly as possible.” > > Berton, during his research on Canadian anti-Semitism, sent two letters to each of 29 summer resorts, one under the name of Marshall, and one under the name of Rosenberg. “Marshall” received twice as many reservations as “Rosenberg,” including at some resorts who told “Rosenberg” they were full, or who did not reply to him at all. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/89 "2011-09-08T13:03:45Z")
Some of the old land deeds I’ve researched (late 19th-early 20th century) have restrictions in the sales conditions. One condition was that the purchaser could not subsequently sell the land to people of “African or Asian” ancestry. This is one reason why we in the govt. do NOT enforce deed restrictions but leave the matter to civil courts. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/90 "2011-09-08T13:59:27Z")
It’s strange, but left-leaning secularists and even guys like Sacha Baron-Cohen usually think the place to look for anti-semitism is in the American South. In reality, Southern fundamentalist Protestants are rarely rabid anti-semites. Indeed, if a “fundie” loathes any group to an irrational degree, it’s Catholics! The Confederacy had a Jewish Secretary of State a century before the USA did. That’s NOT an aberration. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/91 "2011-09-08T14:20:06Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Yeah; prejudice is an equal opportunity concept, ironically. > > The thing is, the admittedly few Jews I knew growing up had been in the south for generations, and had southern accents, etc. Besides, Southerners and Jews have some things in common (stereotype warning), fatty foods and high maintenance women. 😃 I think we’ve got Southerners beat on guilt, though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/92 "2011-09-08T14:35:13Z")
_Lolita_ amongst other things, also surveys antisemitism in 50’s America. E.g. Hotels advertising “Churches nearby”. I think Michaelangelo’s Moses, in the Vatican, is done with horns - following the same mistranslation. [Moses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_%28Michelangelo%29) ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/93 "2011-09-08T15:22:07Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > _Lolita_ amongst other things, also surveys antisemitism in 50’s America. E.g. Hotels advertising “Churches nearby”. _That’s_ antisemitism?! ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/94 "2011-09-08T19:26:27Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > I attended medical lectures in college that included old, retired physicians. I had the pleasure of sitting with a very friendly old couple, doctor and teacher in their 80’s. He did his residency somewhere in the Midwest and told us how it was hard for he and his wife, two New York Jews, to adjust to the Midwest - no good food, no shules, etc. On day 1 at the hospital he was asked by a fellow new resident how he was hiding his horns. > > That was in the 50’s, so 50ish years ago. But was he serious about him _actually_ having horns or did he say it as a joke or insult? I think in most of the modern instances, such remarks were meant to be either jocular or hurtful and did not mean the speaker really believed Jews had horns. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/95 "2011-09-08T19:35:02Z")
Were “horns” perhaps an analogy to prominent temples in the cranium - a way to address the much-feared Jewish intelligence that bigots were loathe to acknowledge? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/96 "2011-09-08T20:08:20Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I used to know a French girl who was convinced that Mormons and Amish people were the same thing and practiced polygyny while living in rural farming villages with no modern technology or colorful clothes. Mormons and Amish aren’t particularly well known in France. I’m not surprised at all that this girl confused them (both being some sort of weird American sect). I’m sure most French people have never even heard of the Amish, in fact. As for the horns, I’m not convinced it’s antisemitic. If you have been told by your parents that Jews have horns, your peers have been told the same, and you’re not particularly well educated, why would you not believe it even into adult age, in time to teach it to your own children? I had read (on this board) of the horns thing, which made me think that I finally understood why Moses had horns in this famous sculpture (I had wondered since I had seen a picture of it as a kid) : “Ah! People used to believe that Jews had horns!”. So, thanks for the more accurate explanation about the mistranslation. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/97 "2011-09-08T20:57:41Z")
There are large parts of the USA without jewish communities. If you grow up with people, you get to know them-bt in the Far West and Deep South, there are towns without jewish people. The late kid’s show host (Soupy Sales) related how his was the only jewish family in his town, when he was growing up. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/98 "2011-09-08T21:02:57Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > The same thing is frequently claimed about Sunnyside Beach in Toronto; there used to be “NO JEWS” signs displayed, even up into the 1950s. And not a single photo of such a sign exists. How would they have enforced such a law, anyhow? Pecker checks? Nazi-style facial proportion measurements? This may be a memory of the (very real) exclusion of Jews from Toronto’s sporting clubs. Not being a member of a club, Jews could not participate in many of the beachside activities like swimming and boating, which required club membership. My grandfather was a reasonably well-known amateur swimmer in the 1920s - 1930s. He had lots of trouble competing, because all of swim races required one to be a member of an athletic club, and none of the clubs allowed Jews to join. Those admitting members had no trouble identifying who was Jewish. This was guarden-variety anti-semitism, and fueled in part by the notion that Jews were not an “athletic race” and so had no need of club membership. He decided that this iniquity should not stand, and decided to do something about it. He was a distance swimmer, and one of the set races was around Toronto Islands. He waited until all of the (club members) had set off, then he jumped in himself some time after the others - and nonetheless won. The headlines in the paper the next day were “JEWBOY WINS RACE” - my mom still has this clipping in her attic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/99 "2011-09-08T21:32:57Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > _That’s_ antisemitism?! Are real estate ads like this, once the norm in the Buffalo area, anti-Semitic? [![](https://i.imgur.com/f5sBM.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/f5sBM.jpg) I’ve heard it claimed that such ads were racist “code”, in a way. The overwhelming majority of whites in Buffalo are Catholic, who would know where the apartments or houses are located, while blacks who generally aren’t Catholic would have no clue. Also, as an urban planner, I come across a LOT of zoning codes that allow “churches”, but make no mention of synagogues, mosques, gurdwaras, and the like. They’re almost _never_ interpreted to be exclusionary towards non-Christian organizations. It’s just old-fashioned language use, like using “he” for all genders, and a relic of less diverse times. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143/100 "2011-09-08T21:59:09Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > _That’s_ antisemitism?! Yes, as **elmwood** noted, it is coded instead of open. In the context it’s meaning was clear: “No Jewish guests”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-american-in-the-past-50-years-ever-really-think-that-jews-have-horns/595143.md?page=6)