# Did any of the Star Trek books explain how the economy of the Federation worked? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 25, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175 "2008-08-25T06:45:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/21 "2008-08-25T16:02:25Z")
[QUOTE=pingnak] They’re commies! > **[Star Wars vs Star Trek Essays: The Economics of Star Trek](http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html)** [/QUOTE] Wow - I’ve just had my affection for the Federation and what it stands for well and truly buried. Alive. Screaming and begging for mercy. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/22 "2008-08-25T16:38:38Z")
Just wondering … does anyone remember the first time we heard that the Federation doesn’t use money? Was it in TOS? Or was it a later thing? I do remember that one of the plot elements of Journey To Babel involved mining rights, so presumably there was some kind of trade happening… thwartme ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/23 "2008-08-25T16:47:43Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] A hint of that is seen on Eureka. The owner of Cafe Diem, whose name I cannot recall right now, doesn’t charge anything for the food, yet happily works away. [/QUOTE] Well, except for the $25,000 or so he charged for coffee to that one beeyotch. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/24 "2008-08-25T16:50:22Z")
I think it was in one of the hundreds of TOS novels that have appeared, that I read where one of the characters owned huge tracts of land on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri. IANAE but I would say the economy in ST is not a socialist or communist Utopia but simply an economy where poverty has been eliminated. Private real estate and other property or business need not be abolished. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/25 "2008-08-25T16:54:47Z")
Now that I think of it, wasn’t Harry Mudd all about making money? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/26 "2008-08-25T16:55:52Z")
[QUOTE=thwartme] Just wondering … does anyone remember the first time we heard that the Federation doesn’t use money? Was it in TOS? Or was it a later thing? [/QUOTE] One thing that’s never been clear is whether it’s the Federation as a whole that has abandoned money, or just humans, or just humans living on Earth. There was the DS9 episode involving Ezri’s family and their mining operations; they made a deal with an Orion Syndicate loan shark, indicating that their business was money-driven. But Trill is a Federation world. Then there was the mysterious Vash from TNG and DS9, an apparent human and Federation citizen who was an obsessed profiteer anyway. (One wonders what good being a profiteer is in a society without money, but it seems like she spent most of her time elsewhere.) The Bolians apparently have a central bank, because it got robbed once. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/27 "2008-08-25T17:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] Wow - I’ve just had my affection for the Federation and what it stands for well and truly buried. Alive. Screaming and begging for mercy. [/QUOTE] You weak-minded fool! He’s using an old Jedi mind trick! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/28 "2008-08-25T17:00:44Z")
In TOS someone (Scotty?) said “I’ll bet you credit to doughnuts.” I asked my mother what that meant. She explained the express was “I’ll bet you dollars to doughnuts” meaning if I win I pay dollars, if you win you pay doughnuts, I’m so sure you’ll win, but that money must have been replaced with credit by then. Interesting speculation: A doctor gets credit of 1500 units a month, a restaurant owner $1000 a manual worker 500? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/29 "2008-08-25T17:05:45Z")
In the TOS episode _Arena_, Kirk came across a collection of raw diamonds. He referred to them as “a fortune,” thus implying that they actually had worth. However, in _Star Trek IV_, he also said that they didn’t use money in the future. Don’t look for too much consistency here, folks. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/30 "2008-08-25T17:07:42Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] I think it was in one of the hundreds of TOS novels that have appeared, that I read where one of the characters owned huge tracts of land on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri. [/QUOTE] And if there’s anything a man wants, it’s huge . . . tracts of land. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/31 "2008-08-25T17:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] Interesting speculation: A doctor gets credit of 1500 units a month, a restaurant owner $1000 a manual worker 500? [/QUOTE] …so, how many doughnuts is that? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/32 "2008-08-25T17:19:27Z")
Some relevant links from [Memory Alpha](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Portal:Main): [Economics](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Economics): > [@](#): > > Jean-Luc Picard explained to Lily Sloane that “the economics of the future are different,” that those of the 21st century, as “money doesn’t exist in the 24th century” He further explained that “the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.” (Star Trek: First Contact) It was further explained by Nog that Humans “abandoned currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.” (DS9: “In the Cards”) [Federation credit](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_credit): > [@](#): > > The Federation credit is the monetary unit of the United Federation of Planets. (TOS: “The Trouble with Tribbles”; TAS: “Mudd’s Passion”; TNG: “The Price”) > [@](#): > > Ronald D. Moore commented: “By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did ‘credits’ and that was that. Personally, I’ve always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that’s that.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/33 "2008-08-25T17:38:13Z")
Lots of things have value, Spiken Flame-Gems, Anterean Glow-Water, Tribbles… ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/34 "2008-08-25T17:38:38Z")
[QUOTE=thwartme] Just wondering … does anyone remember the first time we heard that the Federation doesn’t use money? Was it in TOS? Or was it a later thing? [/quote] TOS discussed the amount of money that went into Spock’s training but I don’t recall what if any unit of currency was mentioned. Kirk negotiated with those dilithium miners in “Mudd’s Women” but again I don’t recall any units of currency mentioned. “Credits” were in use in “The Trouble With Tribbles” but it is unclear whether that refers to a Federation currency. McCoy refers to “credits” in ST3 but again it’s not clear whether it’s a federation currency. The first time I _clearly_ recall the “Federation has no money” was when Picard said it to Lily (was it Lily?) in “First Contact.” ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/35 "2008-08-25T17:39:40Z")
I’ll bet you donuts to quatloos. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/36 "2008-08-25T17:39:44Z")
Never mind. Nothing to see here. Move on. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/37 "2008-08-25T17:43:02Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] I was wondering about this very idea the other day. On earth in certain episodes they show SF or somewhere like that and little coffee shops. Why would you work in a coffee shop or bar or wherever, serving people if you didn’t need money? Why would you do any job if you could just bum around on Risa? [/QUOTE] In the beginning of the novelization of the first Star Trek novel, which is officially by Roddenberry, there is a discussion of the “New Human” movement - something Kirk is definitely not a part of. It’s pretty fuzzy, but I would guess that it was in full sway by TNG time. Perhaps new humans would work for the fun of it, and someone running a coffee shop would be like a kid playing store. As for another example of money in TOS, in **The Devil in the Dark** Kirk says that the Horta digging tunnels would make the miners very rich. Given the number of people we see in not the best environments, you’d have to guess that they were in it for the money. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/38 "2008-08-25T17:48:36Z")
What I always wondered, if there’s no money, why play poker? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/39 "2008-08-25T17:52:29Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] I was wondering about this very idea the other day. On earth in certain episodes they show SF or somewhere like that and little coffee shops. Why would you work in a coffee shop or bar or wherever, serving people if you didn’t need money? Why would you do any job if you could just bum around on Risa? [/QUOTE] In ST: First Contact, Picard says that they mostly try to better themselves. So the reason one would own or work in a coffee shop or restaurant would be that one likes making coffee or cooking. That sounds nice and all, however there are still scarce resources. I mean the Earth doesn’t have infinite landmass and not everyone who wants a home by the sea can have one. Distant colonies clearly don’t have the latest and greatest when it comes to space plague vacines, replicators and generators and whatnot. Certain minerals still need to be mined out of the ground. So whenever you have scarce resources, you still need some sort of system of barter and exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175/40 "2008-08-25T18:05:38Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] That sounds nice and all, however there are still scarce resources. I mean the Earth doesn’t have infinite landmass and not everyone who wants a home by the sea can have one. Distant colonies clearly don’t have the latest and greatest when it comes to space plague vacines, replicators and generators and whatnot. Certain minerals still need to be mined out of the ground. [/QUOTE] Well, duh, that’s what the Genesis Project was for! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-of-the-star-trek-books-explain-how-the-economy-of-the-federation-worked/461175.md?page=3)