# Did any Star Trek books address how the cashless Earth economy worked? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 24, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162 "2010-10-24T03:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/21 "2010-10-24T14:57:43Z")
I know, seems odd. Mot just trimmed the fringe. This was in _Ensign Ro_ > [@joebuck20](#): > > Picard getting his hair cut? > **[Mot](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Mot)** > > Mot was a Bolian civilian barber who worked in the barbershop aboard the USS Enterprise-D during the 2360s. Mot often gave tactical advice to Captain Picard and Commander Riker, usually against their will. Riker commented, however, that Mot was the... > [@](#): > > Mr. Mot often gave tactical advice to Captain Picard and Commander Riker, usually against their will. Riker commented, however, that Mot was the best barber in Starfleet. (TNG: “Ensign Ro”) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/22 "2010-10-24T15:40:20Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > In other words, it can only exist in a fantasy/scifi universe, because in the real universe, that will never happen. Best post/poster name combo of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/23 "2010-10-24T16:09:30Z")
Another canonical point to consider. At one point in DS9 Cisco is looking back on his first year in the academy and he remarks to someone (make Jake) that for the first month he went home every night (from San Francisco to New Orleans) and ate dinner at home. The person he was speaking with remarked something like ‘that must has used up all of your transporter credit for the year!’ So it’s good. But it isn’t, apparently, unlimited. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/24 "2010-10-24T16:43:18Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No really, that’s the bullshit spiel of the Star Trek Universe, from everything I’ve ever seen or read. What you call bullshit, I call an optimistic take on the future of humanity. Their system works because, as a whole, they are better people than we are. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/25 "2010-10-24T17:53:43Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > What you call bullshit, I call an optimistic take on the future of humanity. Their system works because, as a whole, they are better people than we are. Wasn’t there an episode of Deep Space Nine where O’Brian makes some kind of remark implying that humans had evolved in some way since the 20th century? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/26 "2010-10-24T18:11:09Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > But my point is that if they’ve completely eliminated all poverty and need, why does anyone work? I have a small fixed income, which due to my small cheap apartment - would keep me out of _poverty and need._ I still work, as I’d like to be able to go on vacations, drive a nice car, get more than basic cable and internet, and eat out. I also like my job too. Mind you, if they didn’t pay me (and let us assume no one got paid) I’d only drop by for a few hours 3-4 days a week, instead of the slightly over 40 I work now. I agree with aceplace57: I think ST:TNG is more a place “where basic needs like food, shelter, medical care are met for everybody. Anyone could pursue advanced education and training for free.” Hardly utopia, but no one goes hungry or cold. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/27 "2010-10-24T18:40:14Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I kind of always viewed Starfleet as the UFP version of the SCA. “Yeah, those are a bunch of people who pooled their credits together to go fly around on spaceships and dress in costumes.” This is, of course, contradicted by the entirety of DS9 and TOS, and the less-stupid episodes of TNG as well. Starfleet officers have the authority to arrest civilians who break the laws, among other things. Data and Worf threaten to shut down a bar if it is found to be harboring Maquis, and they are taken seriously. Sisko exercises considerable authority; so does Kirk. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/28 "2010-10-24T21:21:35Z")
[Relevant](http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/222298/mamas-dont-let-your-babies-grow-be-federation-tax-collectors/ilya-somin): > [@](#): > > The Federation is not just “socialist” in the sense that some conservatives denounce any big-government policy as “socialistic.” It’s socialist in the classic sense of the word: government control of all or most major economic activity…virtually all large-scale Federation enterprises in the Star Trek universe seem to be government-owned: from space stations to research facilities to mining operations. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the Federation is communist…or a monolithic one-party state. But it at least has some form of kinder, gentler non-Marxian socialism. > > Vulcan seems to have very different laws from Earth. And Vulcan’s economy seems to have a large private sector. In Deep Space Nine, the planet of Bajor applies for Federation membership. Although Bajor is at least a partial theocracy with a government heavily influenced by religious leaders, anti-Federation Bajorans never argue that Federation membership would lead to the end of Bajor’s quasi-theocratic political system (as it surely would if the highly secular Federation denied political autonomy to member planets). In our world, it has generally proven impossible to combine socialism with decentralized federalism… > > How do we reconcile the contradiction? Maybe it is only Earth that is socialistic, while the other member worlds have free market systems or mixed economies. The human-dominated Star Fleet military is the only visible Federation military force, and is perhaps tasked with collecting tribute from the nonhuman planets for redistribution to Earth. But as long as they pay their taxes, which subsidize Earth’s welfare state and Star Fleet itself, they are largely left alone to govern their domestic affairs as they see fit. The Federation is essentially a big protection racket. > > This theory explains a lot. It is now clear why Star Fleet is so completely dominated by humans. There are almost no nonhuman Star Fleet admirals, and very few other nonhuman officers. In one of the Star Trek movies, a Klingon spokesman denounces the Federation as a “homo sapiens-only club.” Taken literally, this is too obviously false to be effective propaganda; the Federation surely does have nonhuman members. But the line makes sense if it actually refers to the fact that Federation and Star Fleet are tools for expropriating wealth from nonhuman planets and transferring it to Earth. > > It is easy to have fun with these kinds of speculations. The truth, however, is that the producers of Star Trek most likely didn’t even consider the possibility that there is a contradiction between the Federation’s socialism and its federalism. More from the same law professor [here](http://volokh.com/posts/1190182117.shtml) and [here](http://volokh.com/posts/1241844798.shtml). > [@](#): > > I’m sure various readers will claim that socialism in Star Trek works well because they have transporters and replicators, which supposedly eliminate all economic scarcity. If resources are completely unlimited, the argument goes, it doesn’t matter if they are used inefficiently. But as I pointed out in this post, there is in fact economic scarcity in the Star Trek universe, because not everything can be replicated (e.g. - power sources for starships and replicators themselves). Moreover, the Federation and other nations in that universe wage war over the control of planets and other assets, which implies that they can’t be replicated either. It’s also worth noting that replicators seem to be a government monopoly in the Federation, at least on Earth; I don’t think we ever see a private replicator owned by a human Federation citizen. That has some troubling implications of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/29 "2010-10-24T21:28:03Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Wasn’t there an episode of Deep Space Nine where O’Brian makes some kind of remark implying that humans had evolved in some way since the 20th century? On DS9? I seriously doubt it. That’s doesn’t fit O’Brien’s personality at all, nor the tone of the show. He might have said it on TNG when he was just a glorified extra, though, or someone may’ve said it on Voyager. They’re both much more idealistic shows. > [@DWMarch](#): > > Oddly enough, a background display in TNG shows that they also still have health insurance in the 24th century too (“Don’t let a Ferengi swindle you! Save up to 15% with FedMed! Apply by stardate 46693.2 and we’ll throw in a bonus neutered Tribble!”). Okuda put a lot of easter eggs on displays never meant to be seen, including a giant hamster wheel in engineering on some schematics so take anything you might glean from those types of displays with a mine’s worth of salt. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/30 "2010-10-24T22:38:58Z")
In the _Deep Space Nine_ relaunch novels, much is made of Quark’s consternation that when Bajor joins the Federation, they will become part of their moneyless economy, and there goes his profit. So Rom, the new Grand Nagus, makes Quark’s Bar the official embassy to Bajor, allowing Quark to continue to charge for his services. Of course, how this moneyless economy functions is never explained. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/31 "2010-10-24T22:49:36Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > If they don’t use money, what exactly are they betting in Riker’s poker school? If Voyager is any indication, duty shifts. (I assume they don’t need to bet replicator rations.) Or maybe something that can’t be replicated, like real alcohol. Or, since there are two women, maybe it’s actually strip poker–we just never get that far. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/32 "2010-10-24T22:50:40Z")
Or they could just be playing for chips. That’s what my friends and I did when we were kids, and we enjoyed ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/33 "2010-10-24T23:12:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If Voyager is any indication, duty shifts. (I assume they don’t need to bet replicator rations.) I explicitly recall that replicator rations being used as currency on Voyager, as resources were not infinite there. > [@](#): > > Or maybe something that can’t be replicated, like real alcohol. Or, since there are two women, maybe it’s actually strip poker–we just never get that far. Alcohol _can_ be replicated; Worf provides the stereotyped Irishman with the ridiculously hot daughter some actual booze. It’s just that the default is the non-inebriating synthehol. If you didn’t know that asking for Irish whiskey would bring up the defanged version you might not guess it – particularly if you didn’t know the defanged version existed in the first place. The SIwtRHD had only learned of replicators that day, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/34 "2010-10-24T23:39:07Z")
> [@Hades](#): > > On DS9? I seriously doubt it. That’s doesn’t fit O’Brien’s personality at all, nor the tone of the show. > [@Deep Space Nine](#): > > O’brien:“When we were growing up, they used to tell us… humanity had evolved, that mankind had outgrown hate and rage. But when it came down to it, when I had the chance to show, that no matter what anybody did to me, that I was still an evolved human being… I failed. I repaid kindness with blood. I was no better than an animal.” [(Link.)](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hard_Time_%28episode%29) I think this fits in rather nicely with an “optimistic take on humanity,” _and_ the tone of the show. Like I said. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/35 "2010-10-25T00:01:16Z")
[Federation Credits](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_credit) Apparently Ronald D. Moore thought the absence of a Federation monetary system was bs. A bit more about [credits](http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_credit). [Latinum](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Latinum) seemed to be the preferred ‘hard’ currency of the Star Trek galaxy. I’ve used up my geek credits for the month with those links. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/36 "2010-10-25T02:06:23Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > What you call bullshit, I call an optimistic take on the future of humanity. Their system works because, as a whole, they are better people than we are. “You keep hunting your whale, Ahab!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/37 "2010-10-25T04:15:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This is, of course, contradicted by the entirety of DS9 and TOS, and the less-stupid episodes of TNG as well. I’m sorry, yeah, I should have specified TNG era, specifically. One of those little ‘you know, if you look at it this way it sort of makes sense’ things. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/38 "2010-10-25T15:48:41Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I’m sorry, yeah, I should have specified TNG era, specifically. One of those little ‘you know, if you look at it this way it sort of makes sense’ things. Honestly, TNG is so inconsistent on the economy issue (only natural, as what they postulate is incoherent) that it should simply be ignored. Likewise Picard’s silly statement about Starfleet not being a military organization, which can only be reconciled by an exremely narrow reading of the word _military_ – i.e., saying that only ground forces are military. ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/39 "2010-10-25T15:59:34Z")
Starfleet does have ground forces though, as Jake Sisko found out when he wanted to find out what war was really like. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162/40 "2010-10-25T16:55:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Honestly, TNG is so inconsistent on the economy issue (only natural, as what they postulate is incoherent) that it should simply be ignored. Likewise Picard’s silly statement about Starfleet not being a military organization, which can only be reconciled by an exremely narrow reading of the word _military_ – i.e., saying that only ground forces are military. Eh … I agree that this statement was silly, but it wasn’t quite _as_ silly as you’re saying. A good example from the real world might be the police - they’re armed, and some of them (i.e., SWAT teams) are very heavily armed and _meant_ to engage in violence. There are similarities here to military service, but we draw a sharp distinction between the police and the military - violence is a necessary part of policework, but the fundamental function of law enforcement is something we scrupulously keep out of military hands. By a similar token, I can imagine TNG-era Picard saying, if you pressed him, something like, “Starfleet’s mandate is exploration and the enforcement of certain parts of interstellar (Federation) law. Ships doing this work need to be armed, and since it’s too expensive (in terms of men, resources, etc) to build a dedicated exploratory/law enforcement fleet and a dedicated war fleet, we use Starfleet for warfighting on those rare occasions when it’s needed. (Just as, in times of national emergency, police might be drafted into military units). But we aren’t ‘the military’, any more than a beat cop with his pistol/phaser is.” > [@Quimby](#): > > What you call bullshit, I call an optimistic take on the future of humanity. Their system works because, as a whole, they are better people than we are. I’ll say this for Rodenberry - although I think his particular take on human progress was unspeakably silly, it’s hard to argue against the notion that people can genuinely become _better_ over time. Consider the ancient Romans, for example - racist, sexist, genocidally violent slavers. Also the height of Western civilization in their day. Who can deny that we - with our democracies, our rule of law, our tolerance for variation in creed and ethnicity and so on - are far better people than they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-any-star-trek-books-address-how-the-cashless-earth-economy-worked/558162.md?page=3)