# Did anyone follow the Kelly Thomas trial? Cops' use of force caused a death; cops aquitted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785 "2014-01-14T15:04:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/281 "2014-02-13T20:28:56Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > . . . I still think there is inherently something wrong with what happened. Thomas was not being “combative,” he was sitting down when he was basically assaulted. If anything, he was being slightly unruly, which can be expected from a mentally ill person or a person who has problems with authority. The officer never even asked him about the car handles, which is why he was called out there in the first place. Before he pounced on Thomas, the officer never said, “put your hands behind your back,” he simply began attacking the man. All this being granted…it certainly justifies the cop being fired. But does it rise to the level of the crime he was accused of? If the criminal charges were “excessive force” would make sense. But “second degree murder” was too much to ask for. The evidence simply didn’t support that charge. I don’t believe anyone here has said that what happened was acceptable. Cops shouldn’t smack people around. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/282 "2014-02-13T20:32:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well I’m saying that barring one whopping good piece of missing information the jury is stupid. I leave open the option they could be right and I can’t pinky swear there isn’t a logical explanation since I haven’t seen the transcripts. But I’ll be damned if I can imagine one beyond convincing them this was the proper technique to use and the guy just spontaneously broke out in bruises and died. I don’t entirely disagree. I think we all want to know the exact reasons they found the officers not guilty. > [@](#): > > I have to disagree with this. We had an incident in my city where an officer pepper sprayed a Wendy’s employee because he thought she gave him the wrong change. His fellow officers wanted him gone. Sure, there’s a gray area where ranks get closed. They have to put up with a lot of crap. This wasn’t one of those situations IMO. I would bet good money the other officers wanted these guys in jail. I’m not saying people don’t want these officers gone and/or punished, it’s clear that many of us want these officers to suffer the consequences to the full extent. But people in general have shown an inability to convict police officers of on-duty murder and similar charges. There have been other cases more appalling than this one, where the officers were acquitted, or not even charged. If police favoritism didn’t play a role in the verdict, then please tell me why you think the jurors made the wrong verdict other than them being stupid. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/283 "2014-02-13T20:47:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > All this being granted…it certainly justifies the cop being fired. But does it rise to the level of the crime he was accused of? Excellent question. I think it does and here’s why. > [@](#): > > Second Degree Murder: Definition > > Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable “heat of passion”; or 2)\*\* a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life.\*\* Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter. > > - See more at: [http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html#sthash.iHbRUb0i.dpuf](http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html#sthash.iHbRUb0i.dpuf) The bolded section clearly shows why Ramos was charged with second degree murder. I can understand why there might be reasonable doubt on the count of second degree murder, but not for involuntary manslaughter. > [@](#): > > If the criminal charges were “excessive force” would make sense. But “second degree murder” was too much to ask for. The evidence simply didn’t support that charge. It just depends on the perspective. If this had been a civilian trying to stop a man allegedly stealing from cars, I’m confident he would be going to prison for murder. Cops demand more authority, and rightfully so, but the cops here clearly lost sight of how to physically handle an unruly perp. I think this loss of sight, goes as far as at least involuntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/284 "2014-02-13T21:28:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > All this being granted…it certainly justifies the cop being fired. But does it rise to the level of the crime he was accused of? > > If the criminal charges were “excessive force” would make sense. But “second degree murder” was too much to ask for. The evidence simply didn’t support that charge. > > I don’t believe anyone here has said that what happened was acceptable. Cops shouldn’t smack people around. Hoping I don’t stray too far into assumption territory this doesn’t appear to be a pre-planned murder. So 1st degree is out. So now it’s one that needs to show they had reason to believe their actions seriously endanger (ie kill) the man and they knew this to be true. If a random person did this there is an element of not knowing the consequences of striking someone in that manner having no prior training. In this instance their training becomes a litmus test for proper procedure. Excessive use of force is certainly explained in this training (assumption made). Of course there is always going to be a gray area. The pictures and video do not show a gray area. That’s my opinion and I’m reflecting it back on the jury. Should a reasonable person, trained as a officer of the law, recognize their actions were life threatening? I have to say yes without doubt. I would further say that they instigated a response to create an excuse to begin the beating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=14)