# Did anyone follow the Kelly Thomas trial? Cops' use of force caused a death; cops aquitted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785 "2014-01-14T15:04:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/21 "2014-01-15T02:19:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, it’s simple. Order and read the entire trial transcript, plus all legal analysis. Watch all the evidence. Then, tell us what you think, arguing from knowledge rather than the opposite. > > I am really tired of dudes who spend all their life trying to get out of jury duty complaining about “how can the jury possibly…’ when they didn’t even read the fucking trial transcript. Personally, I am really tired of obsequious puppies who are so enamoured of their authority figures that they impulsively jump to defend the police whenever anyone dares to question their conduct. Furthermore, I’ve served on juries in criminal cases and seen first-hand how a jury can be railroaded by one loudmouthed asshole with an agenda and a foreperson too timid or incompetent to reign said asshole in. Or when one side is completly overpowerd and outspent and outgunned by the other. “How can the jury possibly…” is a legitimate question (if rather pointless after the fact), particularly when police misconduct is in the equation (and is so often given a pass). SS ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/22 "2014-01-15T03:48:00Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Furthermore, I’ve served on juries in criminal cases and seen first-hand how a jury can be railroaded by one loudmouthed asshole with an agenda and a foreperson too timid or incompetent to reign said asshole in. Or when one side is completly overpowerd and outspent and outgunned by the other. > > “How can the jury possibly…” is a legitimate question (if rather pointless after the fact), particularly when police misconduct is in the equation (and is so often given a pass). Did _you_ read the fucking trial transcript in this case? :dubious: “How can the jury…” is only a legit question is you know \*something \*about the trial. Which the Op admits he does not. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/23 "2014-01-15T04:05:18Z")
Fucking grotesque miscarriage of justice. Disgusting. Just for accuracy’s sake, Kelly wasn’t “beaten to death” so much as crushed and strangled. Which is abundantly clear from the video. As is the outrageous behavior of the what… 8-10 cops at final tally piling on a half-naked schizophrenic man apologizing repeatedly, begging to be allowed to breathe, and finally moaning for his father as he lost consciousness. Fucking monstrous. > [@](#): > > the cause of death was “asphyxia caused by mechanical chest compression with blunt cranial-facial injuries sustained during physical altercation with law enforcement.” Rackauckas said Thomas died because of the force of the officers on his chest, which made it impossible for him to breathe. This caused Thomas to become unconscious. He then slipped into a coma and died when taken off life support five days later. > According to Rackauckas, the coroner stated that the injuries to Thomas’ face and head contributed to his death. Also contributing to his death were brain injuries, facial and rib fractures, and the extensive bruising and abrasions he suffered during the beating, which left him lying in a “growing pool of blood,” Rackauckas said. The toxicology report shows that Thomas had no illicit drugs or alcohol in his system.[60] Thomas was severely bleeding and struggled and pleaded, “I can’t breathe,” “Dad, help me.” The DA stated that the officers did not reduce their level of force during the nearly 10-minute assault,[61] however Thomas combatted with officers for almost eight full minutes.[62] ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/24 "2014-01-15T06:10:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How _could_ the jury? Because they sat there for days and heard the actual evidence. Not just watched a short video. And of course, misjudgements never happen, so it’s entirely inappropriate to request some additional information on a messageboard. Seriously, if there is any way that what’s shown in the video is proper police conduct, or even justifiable as such in the US, then I’m just glad I get to live in a more civilized part of the world. If those cops can’t safely detain a single mentally unstable and unarmed individual without bashing in his face such that he chokes on his own blood, then some questions should be raised about your system of law enforcement and how it trains and instructs those implementing it. Also, it seems pretty clear to me that the whole thing would have taken a different course if the victim hadn’t been mentally ill and homeless, but rather, a proper person like you and me. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/25 "2014-01-15T06:14:37Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Maybe the jury, in two days of deliberation, determined that the cops acted appropriately, use of force and all. . . . Another possibility is that the jury felt that there was wrongdoing, but the prosecution never fully demonstrated it beyond a reasonable doubt. Either way, the policemen are “not guilty.” There has been some talk of a Federal case, but most legal analysts say this would only happen if there were new evidence, or evidence not introduced in this trial, or if there were some solid indications of misconduct. Since none of those things is true, there probably won’t be another trial. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/26 "2014-01-15T06:16:37Z")
DrDeth and Amateur Barbarian, how about you climb out of the OP’s asshole. The man is clearly not JAQing off, it isn’t ridiculous to wonder if justice was served based on viewing a short clip clearly showing abuse of power. Are you both under the impression the justice system in infallible? Did the Straight Dope change it’s mission statement from ‘Fighting Ignorance’ to ‘Don’t Ask Anything Here Until You’ve Read Hundreds of Pages of Court Transcripts’. Cause if it did there isn’t an OP any of you have started that couldn’t be addressed with the same arrogance you’ve shown here. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/27 "2014-01-15T07:10:24Z")
For anyone who feels that the case deserves a reevaluation, [here’s](http://www.change.org/petitions/the-president-of-the-united-states-investigate-the-death-of-kelly-thomas-as-a-federal-case) a petition you can sign to investigate Thomas’ death as a federal case. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/28 "2014-01-15T14:55:38Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > If those cops can’t safely detain a single mentally unstable and unarmed individual without bashing in his face such that he chokes on his own blood, then some questions should be raised about your system of law enforcement and how it trains and instructs those implementing it. Do you have a cite that he choked to death on his own blood? > [@](#): > > Also, it seems pretty clear to me that the whole thing would have taken a different course if the victim hadn’t been mentally ill and homeless, but rather, a proper person like you and me. Presumably if he had not been mentally ill, he would not have been attempting to find unlocked cars, and if he had not had a history of violence against family members, he would not have been homeless. So you may be right there. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/29 "2014-01-15T15:24:08Z")
We don’t know that Thomas was attempting to find unlocked cars. He was _suspected_ of doing so. Regardless of the correctness of the homicide verdict, I am a little shocked that the officers were not at least convicted of battery. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/30 "2014-01-15T15:29:26Z")
More than anything else, I’d call the whole wretched affair an indictment of the state of mental health care in the U.S. post-deinstitutionalization. That we have an underclass of the mentally ill living on the streets, where they will have confrontations with police officers not equipped or trained to deal with them, is the real problem. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/31 "2014-01-15T15:39:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a cite that he choked to death on his own blood? I didn’t say ‘to death’, but otherwise, e.g. [here](http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-ca-police-officer-charged-murder-175213929.html): > [@](#): > > [Ron Thomas] has previously released his son’s medical records showing Thomas suffered broken bones in his face, choked on his own blood and was repeatedly shocked with two stun guns. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/32 "2014-01-15T16:58:03Z")
Thanks. Since you also said this - > [@](#): > > Seriously, if there is any way that what’s shown in the video is proper police conduct, or even justifiable as such in the US, then I’m just glad I get to live in a more civilized part of the world. If those cops can’t safely detain a single mentally unstable and unarmed individual without bashing in his face such that he chokes on his own blood, then some questions should be raised about your system of law enforcement and how it trains and instructs those implementing it. I presume in your country schizophrenics with bad hearts who violently resist arrest never die. Got a cite for that? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/33 "2014-01-15T17:11:53Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Seriously, if there is any way that what’s shown in the video is proper police conduct, or even justifiable as such in the US, then I’m just glad I get to live in a more civilized part of the world. If those cops can’t safely detain a single mentally unstable and unarmed individual without bashing in his face such that he chokes on his own blood, then some questions should be raised about your system of law enforcement and how it trains and instructs those implementing it. It should be noted that whether the conduct was proper procedure or justifiable as such cannot be determined solely from the outcome of a criminal trial. The jury is charged with determining whether the elements of a crime have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which is quite different from evaluating whether proper procedures were followed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/34 "2014-01-15T18:08:50Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > DrDeth and Amateur Barbarian, how about you climb out of the OP’s asshole. The man is clearly not JAQing off, it isn’t ridiculous to wonder if justice was served based on viewing a short clip clearly showing abuse of power. Are you both under the impression the justice system in infallible? Did the Straight Dope change it’s mission statement from ‘Fighting Ignorance’ to ‘Don’t Ask Anything Here Until You’ve Read Hundreds of Pages of Court Transcripts’. > > Cause if it did there isn’t an OP any of you have started that couldn’t be addressed with the same arrogance you’ve shown here. I quote "Not having followed the case, my primary familiarity with it is the security footage of his arrest … Viewed in a vacuum, the video creates the impression that the police acted unlawfully (for a lay conception of ‘unlawful’)." In other words, all he knows is that he watched a short, heavily edited video snippet and he’s quite ready to say that the Jury- who watched all of that and days and days of other testimony- is wrong. It is _ridiculous to wonder if justice was served based on viewing a short clip_ … Because _of course_, our justice system should be run on watching youtube vids rather than listening to that boring evidence crap.:dubious::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/35 "2014-01-15T18:10:03Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > then I’m just glad I get to live in a more civilized part of the world.. What utopia is that?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/36 "2014-01-15T18:14:25Z")
For the fun of it, would anyone like to offer some kinds of evidence they feel would compellingly change the perception of what is seen on the video? Because you can bring me stacks and stacks and my (admittedly limited) imagination still cannot conjure up anything that significantly changes what is plain to see, given that the video shows the entire incident, apart from a few seconds. Seconds which for me don’t matter all that much, because **my** horror is directed at what came after those seconds. It is a sincere request, not a challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/37 "2014-01-15T18:19:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. Since you also said this - > I presume in your country schizophrenics with bad hearts who violently resist arrest never die. Got a cite for that? > > Regards, > Shodan LMFAO! You want him to provide a cite for a something you presume? Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/38 "2014-01-15T18:23:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I quote "Not having followed the case, my primary familiarity with it is the security footage of his arrest … > > Viewed in a vacuum, the video creates the impression that the police acted unlawfully (for a lay conception of ‘unlawful’)." > > In other words, all he knows is that he watched a short, heavily edited video snippet and he’s quite ready to say that the Jury- who watched all of that and days and days of other testimony- is wrong. > It is _ridiculous to wonder if justice was served based on viewing a short clip_ … > > Because _of course_, our justice system should be run on watching youtube vids rather than listening to that boring evidence crap.:dubious::rolleyes: No, you’re utterly wrong. It is not ridiculous to seek more information, which is what the OP (both the post and the poster) did. There is no declaration that the jury was wrong or might be, or that the verdict was unthinkable, or that the system had failed. All there is is an admission of ignorance and a request for information, WHICH IS WHY THIS MESSAGE BOARD EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/39 "2014-01-15T18:36:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I presume in your country schizophrenics with bad hearts who violently resist arrest never die. Got a cite for that? Is this some misfired attempt at humour, or are you actually seriously asking that question? > [@DrDeth](#): > > In other words, all he knows is that he watched a short, heavily edited video snippet and he’s quite ready to say that the Jury- who watched all of that and days and days of other testimony- is wrong. Where does the OP say any of that? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/40 "2014-01-15T18:46:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > LMFAO! You want him to provide a cite for a something you presume? He appeared to be saying that his country, whatever it is, is civilized. There, no one chokes on their own blood, so the anatomy of their throats apparently differs as well as their police training. But I am asking for a cite of something he presumed, not I. The implication appears to be that things \*\*like this \*\*don’t happen in his country. Therefore it is fair to ask if cases like this never turn out in his country like this one did. [QUOTE=Half Man Half Wit] Is this some misfired attempt at humour, or are you actually seriously asking that question? [/QUOTE] It’s a serious response to your assertion. What country has police who are so good, that they can subdue a homeless person with serious health issues in ways that guarantee that he will not die in the struggle? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=3)