# Did anyone follow the Kelly Thomas trial? Cops' use of force caused a death; cops aquitted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785 "2014-01-14T15:04:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/41 "2014-01-15T19:57:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > He appeared to be saying that his country, whatever it is, is civilized. There, no one chokes on their own blood, so the anatomy of their throats apparently differs as well as their police training. > > But I am asking for a cite of something he presumed, not I. The implication appears to be that things \*\*like this \*\*don’t happen in his country. > > Therefore it is fair to ask if cases like this never turn out in his country like this one did. > It’s a serious response to your assertion. What country has police who are so good, that they can subdue a homeless person with serious health issues in ways that guarantee that he will not die in the struggle? > > Regards, > Shodan From what you’re saying, I presume that you think you control the world’s chewing gum market through clever manipulations via an army of robot monkeys you created out of potatoes by using magic potions. Cite? See, anyone can say that someone else said anything at all. Now defend your claims that I presume you made! ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/42 "2014-01-15T21:07:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s a serious response to your assertion. It’s a response to an assertion I never made (which seems to be par for the course for this thread), and that it was serious was far from obvious upfront, seeing as how it consisted of an utterly ridiculous request for a cite that it is impossible to provide, regardless of the claim being true or not. Apart from the sheer logical impossibility of proving that something ‘never’ occurs, nobody keeps records about things that don’t happen, nobody writes articles about how there’s still not been any cases of hyperintelligent bee swarms invading Switzerland, there’s no comprehensive statistics of non-occurrences, and wikipedia doesn’t have a list of ‘things that don’t happen’. Since I do trust you to have the intelligence to realize this, and since you claim to be serious, the only other option I can see, especially given the rest of your contributions to this thread, is that it’s nothing but an attempt to tangle the thread up in irrelevant side issues because you have otherwise nothing of substance to contribute, just to make it seem as if you are ‘debating’ the issue in a meaningful way, hoping that everybody else will give up sooner or later. There’s several clear questions raised by the OP, without—contrary to **DrDeth** ’s failures in reading comprehension—any up-front judgment or indictment, which to me still seem to admit some further discussion. If you want to contribute any actual content to this thread, try to build a case how, given the publicly accessible (and, again contrary to **DrDeth** ’s misconceptions, substantially complete and comprehensive) video documentation, a case can be built, or was actually built to exonerate the police officers from their charges. But spare us your vacuous rhetoric and ‘cite!’-bleats. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/43 "2014-01-15T21:13:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I quote "Not having followed the case, my primary familiarity with it is the security footage of his arrest … > > Viewed in a vacuum, the video creates the impression that the police acted unlawfully (for a lay conception of ‘unlawful’)." > > **In other words, all he knows is that he watched a short, heavily edited video snippet and he’s quite ready to say that the Jury- who watched all of that and days and days of other testimony- is wrong.** > It is _ridiculous to wonder if justice was served based on viewing a short clip_ … > > Because _of course_, our justice system should be run on watching youtube vids rather than listening to that boring evidence crap.:dubious::rolleyes: I took the liberty of bolding the part that you completely pulled out of your ass. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/44 "2014-01-16T06:22:25Z")
FWIW, [here](http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2014/01/a-peace-officer-considers-the-kelly-thomas-verdict/) are the words of a (former) police officer who doesn’t seem to agree with the jury’s verdict, in fact stating that it ‘repulses’ her. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/45 "2014-01-17T02:50:06Z")
Considering cops are given medals for exhibiting the bravery required to kill innocent, unarmed people, I think it’s progress whenever it gets to the stage that charges are filed. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/46 "2014-01-17T03:02:39Z")
You’ve got, BEFORE the beating, Ramos stating his intention to assault Thomas. I am pretty certain I wouldn’t get away with murder if you had a video of me clearly stating my intent to commence beating my victim before I commenced the altercation. But, cops are allowed to kill people with little consequence, and they have a huge army of supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/47 "2014-01-17T18:58:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You’ve got, BEFORE the beating, Ramos stating his intention to assault Thomas. I am pretty certain I wouldn’t get away with murder if you had a video of me clearly stating my intent to commence beating my victim before I commenced the altercation. That’s the main reason I’m surprised he wasn’t at least convicted of battery. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/48 "2014-01-17T23:38:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s the main reason I’m surprised he wasn’t at least convicted of battery. In order to be convicted of battery, his use of force must be unlawful. If it is, then he’s also guilty of at least manslaughter. Additionally, IIRC, in California, you have to actually be specifically _charged_ with a lesser included offense for the jury to convict you of it. I could be wrong on that last point, but that’s my recollection from the Rodney King case. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/49 "2014-01-18T00:34:34Z")
There have been some upsets in the city administration, presumably as a result of all this. The police chief resigned. The wikipedia article on the incident states that “In a landslide June 5, 2012 recall election, city council members Dick Jones, Don Bankhead and Pat McKinley were voted out of office.” But it doesn’t state how that’s relevant. > [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. Since you also said this - > I presume in your country schizophrenics with bad hearts who violently resist arrest never die. Got a cite for that? I think we can all happily ignore this request to prove a negative and get back to the real discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/50 "2014-01-18T04:57:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Did _you_ read the fucking trial transcript in this case? :dubious: didn’t read the book but I saw the movie. I’m giving it 2 thumbs down. I’ve got a problem with an officer saying: “see my fists”. Not only is there no reason to instigate a physical confrontation they are duty bound to deescalate a confrontation. If their defense was based on some kind of SOP then the concept of serving and protecting the public needs some updating. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/51 "2014-01-18T20:08:39Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > FWIW, [here](http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2014/01/a-peace-officer-considers-the-kelly-thomas-verdict/) are the words of a (former) police officer who doesn’t seem to agree with the jury’s verdict, in fact stating that it ‘repulses’ her. Again, what magical utopia do you live in? ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/52 "2014-01-18T20:41:50Z")
There is a difference between active and passive resistance. If that video showed us a hardcore fist fight instigated by Kelly Thomas, I would say, well, that sucks he died. But that is not what the video showed us. The video shows us Ramos threatening to assault Thomas. It also shows the police striking first. This was an old school police beat down. The only unique thing about this particular beat down is the video and audio showing the whole thing. The defense successfully argued that the officers were doing their jobs as they were trained. That is scary. This was normal, approved behavior? Look what they did to [his face](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kelly-Thomas-Police-Beating.jpg) (_“Hulk, SMASH!”_). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/53 "2014-01-18T21:42:51Z")
What I saw in the video was a bunch of goons assaulting a single unarmed man. Their body language and words (“See my fists?”) clearly showed that they were HAPPY to beat up Thomas, they had a genuinely good time beating him. It would take a LOT of evidence of a much more powerful and clear-cut nature than what I’ve read about to make me think this was any more than a vicious beating administered by thugs glad to have the chance to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/54 "2014-01-18T23:29:50Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > There is a difference between active and passive resistance. If that video showed us a hardcore fist fight instigated by Kelly Thomas, I would say, well, that sucks he died. But that is not what the video showed us. The video shows us Ramos threatening to assault Thomas. It also shows the police striking first. > > This was an old school police beat down. The only unique thing about this particular beat down is the video and audio showing the whole thing. > > The defense successfully argued that the officers were doing their jobs as they were trained. That is scary. This was normal, approved behavior? > > Look what they did to [his face](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kelly-Thomas-Police-Beating.jpg) (_“Hulk, SMASH!”_). Didn’t see that. Yes, I’d call that scary. If that’s what passes as a government serving the people then somewhere we went down the wrong road and I for one have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/55 "2014-01-19T07:24:50Z")
A few things about the Tri-Pacer. It’s part of the short-wing family of Pipers. They lopped off the ends of the wings used on Super Cubs and added more hp. The plane has an undersized elevator which means it’s basically impossible to stall it in level flight. If it’s a 1957 model I think it should have the 150 or 160 hp Lycoming O-320 engine versus the older O-290 which was 135 hp. It’s Achilles heal is the struts. If they’re not sealed then they have to be punch tested every year or two to make sure they’re structurally safe. If these fail the plane goes down. I think they run about $1000 for a sealed set. This is one of the easiest and most forgiving planes to fly. I’d recommend he get a really good GPS and learn and practice how to use it in a simulated emergency landing. It greatly increases his changes of survival at night by flying at high altitudes to gain coverage in case of engine loss. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/56 "2014-01-19T09:15:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, what magical utopia do you live in? A wonderful place where what words mean actually is what they say, not what one wants them to say to conform to preconceived judgments. You wouldn’t know it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/57 "2014-01-19T14:16:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Didn’t see that. Yes, I’d call that scary. If that’s what passes as a government serving the people then somewhere we went down the wrong road and I for one have a problem with it. I think [Radley Balko](http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610392116) has a handle on the problem – essentially we’ve militarized our police culture with all the SWAT teams and so forth, giving them an “us vs. them” mentality, and the “them” in this case is us … the civilians they are supposed to “protect and serve.” Warrior Cops are not the ones you want to go to when you need help … because to them, you’re the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/58 "2014-01-19T14:27:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I think [Radley Balko](http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610392116) has a handle on the problem – essentially we’ve militarized our police culture with all the SWAT teams and so forth, giving them an “us vs. them” mentality, and the “them” in this case is us … the civilians they are supposed to “protect and serve.” Warrior Cops are not the ones you want to go to when you need help … because to them, you’re the enemy. One problem with that theory is that incidents like this not only pre-date the militarization of the police, they were [arguably](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention) [worse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches) then. It’s not hard to imagine that some percentage of the police, like some percentage of the general population, are going to be aggressive bullies, without resort to some broader trend. If there was a better time than right now, in terms of incidence of police brutality, I haven’t seen any evidence for it. That evidence could exist, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/59 "2014-01-19T16:08:35Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If there was a better time than right now, in terms of incidence of police brutality, I haven’t seen any evidence for it. That evidence could exist, of course. My knowlege is less than comprehensive here, but as far as I’ve read, police brutality has been on the rise ever since 9/11—[this source](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-17-Copmisconduct_N.htm) reports a 25% increase between 2001 and 2007, while it’s stated [here](http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/12/19/poli-d19.html) that ‘evidence points to a sharp rise in police brutality’, also stating that ‘comprehensive statistics on police violence in the US are not available, as the national statistics bureaus are under special instructions not to compile them’. However, this, coming from the world socialist web site, might be taken with a grain of sand and I haven’t really been able to find any independent verification (though I also didn’t search terribly hard). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/60 "2014-01-19T18:48:35Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > My knowlege is less than comprehensive here, but as far as I’ve read, police brutality has been on the rise ever since 9/11—[this source](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-17-Copmisconduct_N.htm) reports a 25% increase between 2001 and 2007, while it’s stated [here](http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/12/19/poli-d19.html) that ‘evidence points to a sharp rise in police brutality’, also stating that ‘comprehensive statistics on police violence in the US are not available, as the national statistics bureaus are under special instructions not to compile them’. However, this, coming from the world socialist web site, might be taken with a grain of sand and I haven’t really been able to find any independent verification (though I also didn’t search terribly hard). Maybe, but there’s little question that police in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s as well as decades prior were vastly more brutal than they are today. And that would especially be true when dealing with the way bulls handled homeless people or, to use the vernacular of the time, tramps. One of the things I found interesting is the two cops charged have already been fired so this seems to be a case where the police department has said that they were out of bounds while the jury felt just the opposite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=4)