# Did anyone follow the Kelly Thomas trial? Cops' use of force caused a death; cops aquitted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785 "2014-01-14T15:04:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/81 "2014-01-28T12:41:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve not looked at this case in any depth, so I’m only speaking generally here. But my thought is that, if I were in a jury room with two or three people who have, in my opinion, examined the evidence thoroughly and come to the conclusion that it doesn’t prove guilt, then that gives me reason to doubt the guilt. As, if there is any legitimate way to view the evidence that doesn’t prove guilt, the defendant is not guilty. > > If I genuinely felt they were saying he was not guilty for the wrong reasons - because he’s a cop, because of his race, whatever, that would change my view, but there’s a reason for having several people on a jury, not just one. Whether the votes for acquittal were based on a legitimate view of the evidence, as opposed to something like “they’re cops, and we like cops”, is the sticking point. I wasn’t in the jury room, so I shouldn’t be assuming one way or the other, I guess, but as an outside observer, it boggles my mind that 12 people voted to acquit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/82 "2014-01-28T14:07:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > They still teach, in law school, that it is better to let ten guilty people go free than to imprison one innocent man. This could be one of those ten cases. They don’t teach policy in law school, as a rule. They do teach you that the state has the obligation to prove each and every element of a criminal charge beyond a reasonable doubt, though. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/83 "2014-01-28T14:47:58Z")
Well I hope that at least David Kelley’s family will be able to sue the living shit out of the police department that hired and nurtured these killer goons. But I suppose there’s some bullshit reason that won’t happen either, based on the general impression I’ve gotten of American “justice” where cops are concerned. I mean, I believe now that cops could rape and kill the living equivalent of Whistler’s mother on camera and get an acquittal. This is some sick shit passing for justice. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/84 "2014-01-28T14:58:21Z")
A [civil suit is in progress.](http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=9393910) In this case, where the officers were charged and brought to trial, the blame for injustice lies with us regular folks, in our capacity as jurors. (Unless the prosecution did a deliberately shoddy job or something like that). This incident seems far worse to me than what Johannes Mehserle did in killing Oscar Grant, yet he gets convicted and these men don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/85 "2014-01-28T15:10:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve not looked at this case in any depth, so I’m only speaking generally here. But my thought is that, if I were in a jury room with two or three people who have, in my opinion, examined the evidence thoroughly and come to the conclusion that it doesn’t prove guilt, then that gives me reason to doubt the guilt. As, if there is any legitimate way to view the evidence that doesn’t prove guilt, the defendant is not guilty. See, I don’t get that. If I don’t agree with their arguments, and I don’t have to worry about them having evidence that I don’t, I don’t see any reason to doubt just because they do. I’ve already determined that they are wrong. Just because they’ve examined the evidence thoroughly does not mean they can’t be mistaken in their conclusions. Two intelligent people can disagree, after all. As for this case, it sounds to me like they charged too high going for murder 2. There definitely should be something between murder and a mere fireable offense. Something like extreme negligence or assault and battery.Just because you can’t prove their actions killed him shouldn’t mean that you can’t prove their behavior was criminally unwarranted. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/86 "2014-01-28T15:25:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well I hope that at least David Kelley’s family will be able to sue the living shit out of the police department that hired and nurtured these killer goons. They will almost certainly get a sizable settlement. But that won’t bring Kelley back, and it won’t affect the actual perpetrators in the slightest. All it will do is put the city on a shakier financial footing (and probably result in even worse provision for the mentally ill.) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/87 "2014-01-28T15:31:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They will almost certainly get a sizable settlement. But that won’t bring Kelley back, and it won’t affect the actual perpetrators in the slightest. All it will do is put the city on a shakier financial footing (and probably result in even worse provision for the mentally ill.) It might incentivize other cities to better train officers in how to deal with these sorts of situations without killing anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/88 "2014-01-28T15:34:05Z")
I won’t be holding my breath. It might get the legislature to require other municipalities to do that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/89 "2014-01-28T17:35:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > A [civil suit is in progress.](http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=9393910) > > In this case, where the officers were charged and brought to trial, the blame for injustice lies with us regular folks, in our capacity as jurors. (Unless the prosecution did a deliberately shoddy job or something like that). > > This incident seems far worse to me than what Johannes Mehserle did in killing Oscar Grant, yet he gets convicted and these men don’t. I don’t recall being a juror in the Kelly Thomas trial. Were you a juror in the Kelley Thomas trial? I DO blame the jurors who heard the trial, though that might change if I heard that, say, the jury was not allowed to see the videotape during the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/90 "2014-01-28T17:44:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t recall being a juror in the Kelly Thomas trial. Were you a juror in the Kelley Thomas trial? No. Sorry if my point was unclear. > [@](#): > > I DO blame the jurors who heard the trial, though that might change if I heard that, say, the jury was not allowed to see the videotape during the trial. [They were, in its entirety.](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kelly-thomas-trial-not-guilty-verdicts-20140113,0,5336980.story#axzz2riSbxYyU) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/91 "2014-01-28T18:38:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In this case, where the officers were charged and brought to trial, the blame for injustice lies with us regular folks, in our capacity as jurors. (Unless the prosecution did a deliberately shoddy job or something like that). > > This incident seems far worse to me than what Johannes Mehserle did in killing Oscar Grant, yet he gets convicted and these men don’t. The jury heard days and days of evidence. You looked at what- part of a youtube video? There’s no injustice. If the jury heard all the evidence- and you didn’t- then I trust the juries judgement far more than some anon poster on the internet. The jury did their job, properly. They listened and saw days & days of evidence. The only "injustice’ is some dude who watched a couple minutes of a youtube vid and then decided GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/92 "2014-01-28T18:43:38Z")
Let’s suppose the video was the only evidence the jury saw. Would they have voted to acquit correctly? If not, what other evidence could have been introduced that would have justified the acquittal? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/93 "2014-01-28T18:45:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The jury heard days and days of evidence. You looked at what- part of a youtube video? > > There’s no injustice. If the jury heard all the evidence- and you didn’t- then I trust the juries judgement far more than some anon poster on the internet. > > The jury did their job, properly. They listened and saw days & days of evidence. The only "injustice’ is some dude who watched a couple minutes of a youtube vid and then decided GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!. So in your opinion, then, juries never return an incorrect verdict? And a jury’s verdict should never be questioned, do I have that right? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/94 "2014-01-28T18:55:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The jury heard days and days of evidence. You looked at what- part of a youtube video? > > There’s no injustice. If the jury heard all the evidence- and you didn’t- then I trust the juries judgement far more than some anon poster on the internet. > > The jury did their job, properly. They listened and saw days & days of evidence. The only "injustice’ is some dude who watched a couple minutes of a youtube vid and then decided GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!. What did YOU think, watching the video? I mean, it’s true you can’t ALWAYS trust what you see and hear, but it SHOULD take an AWFUL lot of explaining to make you discard that evidence. I didn’t hear all the explaining the defense did, but I haven’t heard of a thing that would make me want to discard that evidence, online. So what, if anything at all, have you got? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/95 "2014-01-28T19:01:31Z")
Well, I have no dog in this hunt. All I know, having sat on a good number of Juries as well having presented evidence and sat on a GJ, that they have a really hard job. They listen to a LOT of evidence. You are saying that the jury should ignore many days of evidence and make their decision based solely upon a few minutes of video. So, when you have read the entire trial transcript, then come back. Until then, your opinion is not informed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/96 "2014-01-28T19:04:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So in your opinion, then, juries never return an incorrect verdict? And a jury’s verdict should never be questioned, do I have that right? Sure. All you have to be is a legal expert who has read the trial transcript and I’ll listen to your informed opinion. But you un-informed opinion seems to be we should ignore days of other evidence and convict solely on a few minutes of video.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/97 "2014-01-28T19:07:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The jury heard days and days of evidence. You looked at what- part of a youtube video? > > There’s no injustice. If the jury heard all the evidence- and you didn’t- then I trust the juries judgement far more than some anon poster on the internet. > > The jury did their job, properly. They listened and saw days & days of evidence. The only "injustice’ is some dude who watched a couple minutes of a youtube vid and then decided GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!. That’s an absurd stance, that because the verdict was the product of a jury, it’s automatically a just verdict. Are there no unjust verdicts? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/98 "2014-01-28T19:10:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are saying that the jury should ignore many days of evidence and make their decision based solely upon a few minutes of video. Nobody’s saying that. What people are saying is that they can’t figure out what kind of additional evidence conceivably could portray what is in the video—which, on its face, seems to show unambiguously the vicious and malintentional beating of an unarmed person resulting in his death—in a sufficiently different light as to warrant a ‘not guilty’ verdict. If you’ve got any idea about that, please share. > [@](#): > > So, when you have read the entire trial transcript, then come back. Until then, your opinion is not informed. Information is what people are looking for, so you telling them that they can’t ask for further information until they have further information is… odd. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/99 "2014-01-28T19:21:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. All you have to be is a legal expert who has read the trial transcript and I’ll listen to your informed opinion. > > But you un-informed opinion seems to be we should ignore days of other evidence and convict solely on a few minutes of video.:rolleyes: Dude, you have railed in this thread against even questioning the jury’s verdict. I’m not offering an opinion, I’m trying to see if there is ever a time, in your opinion, when anyone can question a jury verdict; so far it seems that you do not think any jury verdict can be challenged, questioned or reviewed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/100 "2014-01-28T19:23:07Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Nobody’s saying that. What people are saying is that they can’t figure out what kind of additional evidence conceivably could portray what is in the video—which, on its face, seems to show unambiguously the vicious and malintentional beating of an unarmed person resulting in his death—in a sufficiently different light as to warrant a ‘not guilty’ verdict. If you’ve got any idea about that, please share. > Information is what people are looking for, so you telling them that they can’t ask for further information until they have further information is… odd. Yes, the further info is easy- order a copy of the trial transcript and sit down for a couple of days of very boring reading. But you, see- _you’re_ not willing to put out that effort. \*You’d \*rather have your opinion delivered to you pre-digested and with no hard mental effort on your part. You’d rather spout your completely un-informed opinion, without knowing even a tiny % of the facts. When come back- bring facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=6)