# Did anyone follow the Kelly Thomas trial? Cops' use of force caused a death; cops aquitted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785 "2014-01-14T15:04:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/121 "2014-01-29T15:39:15Z")
**DrDeth** , can you address this? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Let’s suppose the video was the only evidence the jury saw. Would they have voted to acquit correctly? If not, what other evidence could have been introduced that would have justified the acquittal? You sort of alluded to an answer when you quoted the defense attorney. What, specifically, did he point to that could justify what was shown on video in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/122 "2014-01-29T16:52:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **DrDeth** , can you address this? > > You sort of alluded to an answer when you quoted the defense attorney. What, specifically, did he point to that could justify what was shown on video in your opinion? I have no opinions about this case at all, other than the fact that I trust the judgement of a jury who has been able to view all the evidence over the un-informed opinions of others. Juries are amazing thing, they put up with a lot of shit for almost no return, and they deserve our respect. “How can they?” Simple- they heard \*all \*the evidence, rather than just a short video. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/123 "2014-01-29T16:58:55Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > The question is simply, what happened here, was it just, or wasn’t it? It’s not a question about whether the system works, it’s not a matter of generalities, but a concrete case in which there’s a fact of the matter regarding whether what happened was OK or not. > First of all, thanks for actually bringing some content to the thread, I really appreciate it. > > I don’t share your reading of it, No. The question is simply, what happened here, was it a _crime,_ or wasn’t it? Criminal juries don’t rule on what is “just”. No one is saying what happened is OK. The cops were fired, they face civil lawsuits- but the prosecution failed to convince a jury _beyond all reasonable doubt-_ that those crimes had been committed. No you don’t. This is a lynch mob, not a thread with questions. You want a rope, not information. Not my reading of it. I simply quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/124 "2014-01-29T17:12:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No. The question is simply, what happened here, was it a _crime,_ or wasn’t it? Criminal juries don’t rule on what is “just”. I was referring to the verdict itself, not the death of Thomas or the actions by the police. > [@](#): > > No one is saying what happened is OK. The cops were fired, they face civil lawsuits- but the prosecution failed to convince a jury _beyond all reasonable doubt-_ that those crimes had been committed. Well see, that’s part of what I don’t understand: how can it be simultaneously true that the cops apparently behaved improperly, and are not guilty of (at least) manslaughter? If they didn’t behave according to proper procedure, and this resulted in a death that (presumably) could have been prevented by following procedure, then that seems to be the definition of manslaughter; but if they did follow proper procedure, then it seems as if everybody should indeed say that what happened was ‘OK’, and nobody should get fired or face civil action about it. > [@](#): > > No you don’t. This is a lynch mob, not a thread with questions. You want a rope, not information. Thank you, once more, for telling me what I want; however, I would again like to suggest that you turn your keen facilities for detecting bias onto yourself before accusing others. Your ridiculous hyperbole isn’t really improving your argumentation, such as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/125 "2014-01-29T17:23:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have no opinions about this case at all, other than the fact that I trust the judgement of a jury who has been able to view all the evidence over the un-informed opinions of others. > > Juries are amazing thing, they put up with a lot of shit for almost no return, and they deserve our respect. > > “How can they?” Simple- they heard \*all \*the evidence, rather than just a short video. This smacks of deliberate avoidance of the question. I don’t care what your opinion is; I merely asked to lay a predicate. I want to know what the jury could possibly have been shown that justifies the conduct in the video. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/126 "2014-01-29T17:24:18Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well see, that’s part of what I don’t understand: how can it be simultaneously true that the cops apparently behaved improperly, and are not guilty of (at least) manslaughter? If they didn’t behave according to proper procedure, and this resulted in a death that (presumably) could have been prevented by following procedure, then that seems to be the definition of manslaughter; but if they did follow proper procedure, then it seems as if everybody should indeed say that what happened was ‘OK’, and nobody should get fired or face civil action about it.. I know you don’t understand, that’s obvious. Read some law, Get behind the concept of “burden of proof’. Read the OJ story- he was acquitted of Murder as the defense was able to show 'reasonable doubt” but was found liable in a civil lawsuit as the “preponderance of evidence” showed he was guilty. In order to be found guilty of a crime, it must be proven \*beyond all reasonable doubt. \* This is a very high burden of proof, much higher than a civil or procedural matter. Thus is is very easy for it to be simultaneously true that the cops apparently behaved improperly (more evidence than not), and are not guilty of manslaughter (must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt). Appropriate user name, tho. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/127 "2014-01-29T17:27:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This smacks of deliberate avoidance of the question. I don’t care what your opinion is; I merely asked to lay a predicate. I want to know what the jury could possibly have been shown that justifies the conduct in the video. You clearly failed to read post 108. Please do so. Nor is anyone “justifying the conduct in the video”. The prosecution simply failed to show that such conduct was a crime- _beyond all reasonable doubt._ That’s how the American Jury system works. That’s a Good Thing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/128 "2014-01-29T17:31:21Z")
I read post 108 and referred to it in post 121. Are you taking the position that the conduct shown in the video is not a crime? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/129 "2014-01-29T17:36:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I read post 108 and referred to it in post 121. Are you taking the position that the conduct shown in the video is not a crime? You haven’t read this thread at all have you?:rolleyes: Did you somehow miss the fact that the jury voted to acquit? :dubious: \*You \*may wish to proclaim the defendants guilty based upon getting 1/100th of the available evidence. I am glad the jury got to hear all the evidence before rendering a verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/130 "2014-01-29T17:55:21Z")
Oh, for fuck’s sake. Yes, I read the thread. I am asking you to support _your assertion_ that the jury’s verdict was correct. I am not asking you to offer evidence, just a plausible hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/131 "2014-01-29T18:01:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oh, for fuck’s sake. Yes, I read the thread. I am asking you to support _your assertion_ that the jury’s verdict was correct. I am not asking you to offer evidence, just a plausible hypothesis. I made no such assertion. It’s a matter of \*\*fact \*\*that the jury voted to acquit, thus I don’t need to _assert_ anything, nor do I need to offer my opinion. Since they listened to _all_ the evidence, and neither you nor I did, it must be assumed they made a informed decision. They saw that video- and days more evidence. That video was dissected frame by frame. They heard witnesses. Did you hear the witness testimony? If _you_ read all the evidence, then you can make a informed opinion, instead of clamoring for a lynching based upon a tiny portion of the evidence. Try it someday. Argue based upon a informed opinion, rather than simply emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/132 "2014-01-29T18:10:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I know you don’t understand, that’s obvious. Read some law, Get behind the concept of “burden of proof’. Read the OJ story- he was acquitted of Murder as the defense was able to show 'reasonable doubt” but was found liable in a civil lawsuit as the “preponderance of evidence” showed he was guilty. > > In order to be found guilty of a crime, it must be proven \*beyond all reasonable doubt. \* This is a very high burden of proof, much higher than a civil or procedural matter. > > Thus is is very easy for it to be simultaneously true that the cops apparently behaved improperly (more evidence than not), and are not guilty of manslaughter (must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt). > > Appropriate user name, tho. That last is worth a warning DrDeth. It’s a gratuitous shot at the poster and not the post. Further, I want everyone to calm it down a bit. Let’s keep it civil. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/133 "2014-01-29T18:17:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If _you_ read all the evidence, then you can make a informed opinion, instead of clamoring for a lynching based upon a tiny portion of the evidence. You’re clearly not reading my posts. I am asking you _what additional evidence the jury might have heard_ which would justify the verdict. This is a really, really easy question to answer. You don’t have to refer to the trial transcript. You can make things up. For all I care, you can pretend the cops found a dozen pistols and knives secreted on Thomas’ person. All you have to do is come up with something plausible. And stop trying to instruct me on the law. I already explained everything you think you’re explaining to me two pages ago. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/134 "2014-01-29T19:18:59Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That last is worth a warning DrDeth. It’s a gratuitous shot at the poster and not the post. > > Further, I want everyone to calm it down a bit. Let’s keep it civil. I was actually trying to lighten the mood with a little joke. Obviously, in retrospect, it wasn’t funny and was misunderstood. **Half Man Half Wit** my apologies for that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/135 "2014-01-29T19:21:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And stop trying to instruct me on the law. I already explained everything you think you’re explaining to me two pages ago. While we’re on the subject, I misread a post that wasn’t directed at me as being directed at me. So I take this back. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/136 "2014-01-29T19:22:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have no opinions about this case at all, other than the fact that I trust the judgement of a jury who has been able to view all the evidence over the un-informed opinions of others. You entered in a discussion in Great Debates. Saying you have no opinion and then not presenting a position beyond “juries be great” is not an argument. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Juries are amazing thing, they put up with a lot of shit for almost no return, and they deserve our respect. The jury process is an amazing thing. The people on them are untrained and more importantly untested as to their capacity to reason. They effectively are elected into a position without qualification. Other than “politician” few jobs of such importance exist. > [@DrDeth](#): > > “How can they?” Simple- they heard \*all \*the evidence, rather than just a short video… yes, that’s the question. All you’ve done is hurl insults. If you have a position regarding this case then presented it because this is a debate thread and not a “someone else’s opinion thread”. If you want to start a jury fanboy thread than have a go at it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/137 "2014-01-29T19:35:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, I have no dog in this hunt… Bullshit. Your posts in this thread say exactly the opposite. And yes, for the most part one only need watch the video to realize it’s a _homicide_. Unless, of course, you can’t believe your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/138 "2014-01-29T19:57:28Z")
That’s enough. It is possible to disagree with DrDeth without getting to emotionally charged. We’re all - hopefully - adults here and I expect you all to behave accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/139 "2014-01-29T20:04:25Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > A cop was videotaped announcing his intent to fuck someone up, then carrying through with the threat and beating the shit out of the guy until he died. The fact that a group of diverse people can come to the conclusion that nobody is criminally responsible is just bizarre, and kind of scary. This. And a thosand times this. It’s not ‘scary’ but rather insane ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785/140 "2014-01-29T20:17:05Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] **The Moderator Clears His Throat** [/QUOTE] Try a lozenge before posting. Works for me. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anyone-follow-the-kelly-thomas-trial-cops-use-of-force-caused-a-death-cops-aquitted/678785.md?page=8)