# Did anything good come out of the Vietnam War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437 "2012-07-16T19:49:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/21 "2012-07-17T03:16:49Z")
> [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](#): > > I’ve always wondered by GW Gump, sorry, Bush went into Iraq with no exist strategy - mind you, I always wondered why he went in there in the first place - as the 9/11 al-Q threat came from Afghanistan and not Iraq (a bit like being hit in the face by one boy in the playground, and in response, turning round and petulantly hitting another boy who hadn’t laid a finger on you). That’s easy enough. The Bush Administration from the beginning was looking for an excuse to invade Iraq; and there was no exit strategy because they have no intention of exiting for the foreseeable future. It was supposed to be the indefinite puppet/oil reserve/military outpost of the US, and a springboard for further conquests. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/22 "2012-07-17T03:51:04Z")
> [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](#): > > I’ve always wondered by GW Gump, sorry, Bush went into Iraq with no exist strategy - It was a combination of two things. First, he had an exit strategy of sorts. We’d go in, we’d be welcomed as liberators, Saddam’s regime would be overthrown, we’d help them set up democratic institutions, and then we’d leave. There wasn’t much of an actual plan for administering the country once Saddam was overthrown because the White House wouldn’t let it happen. Before the invasion, the Defense Department had actually created a working group to draw up plans for administration once Saddam was gone, but the White House ordered it stopped. They were afraid its existence would leak out and people would believe we were planning to go to war with Iraq. Since the White House’s official position at the time was that we just wanted Hussein to cooperate with the inspectors and turn over WMDs, the White House was afraid it would send a contradictory message. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/23 "2012-07-17T03:55:39Z")
The Vietnam War taught America that there are limits in the world. We can’t do anything and everything we choose to do just by choosing to do it. The Vietnam War taught us it is possible for us to fail and we benefited from the realism of that lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/24 "2012-07-17T04:02:42Z")
We got a bunch of good movies out of the deal. Plus Rambo. We got Rambo. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/25 "2012-07-17T04:02:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It was a combination of two things. First, he had an exit strategy of sorts. We’d go in, we’d be welcomed as liberators, Saddam’s regime would be overthrown, we’d help them set up democratic institutions, and then we’d leave. It’s hard to know what the Bush administration really believed. It said it expected that the Iraq War would be a cakewalk and we’d have no problems in the aftermath, but we can’t know if they really believed that was true or were just saying they believed it for public consumption. Maybe the Bush Administration expected the Iraq War was going to be an ongoing struggle and they thought they’d somehow benefit from that. But obviously they didn’t want to say beforehand that they expected we’d were walking into a prolonged war so they put out the “greeted with flowers” story to get us moving in the direction they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/26 "2012-07-17T04:07:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > There wasn’t much of an actual plan for administering the country once Saddam was overthrown because the White House wouldn’t let it happen. Before the invasion, the Defense Department had actually created a working group to draw up plans for administration once Saddam was gone, but the White House ordered it stopped. They were afraid its existence would leak out and people would believe we were planning to go to war with Iraq. There was also the libertarian faction that believed that the magic free market would solve everything, and went out of their way to prevent Iraq from being governed. They slashed Iraq’s ability to regulate commerce & industry, slashed taxes, shut down or privatized industries run by the government (which helped massively increase unemployment), and forbade the puppet government from actually do anything to reconstruct the country. All the sorts of things the libertarians are always pushing for over here, but can’t get because they aren’t allowed to do it at gunpoint like they were in Iraq. Companies were supposed to rush into the new free market paradise they had created and turn it into a massively prosperous capitalistic utopia. The people who suffered and died in the process were of course expendable. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/27 "2012-07-17T04:23:46Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > You know, this question gets asked a _lot_ in the 3/4-drunk stage of cocktail parties. You are supposed to answer, “No, of course not!!!” and go refresh your drink. > > Given that a direct consequence of South Vietnam’s collapse was the slaughter of at least 1 million South Vietnamese, plus another 1 million in Cambodia and Laos (we’ll never know the exact figures), I think we could say that for the time we were in Vietnam and keeping the North Vietnamese at bay, we prolonged the lives of 2 million people by a decade or so. That seems to me to be an absolute good. You’re entitled to your wrong opinions, but not to your wrong facts. U.S. intervention cost at least a million lives (more if blamed for Cambodia as many do); it didn’t save them. I’d provide cites but we know such are of no interest to you. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/28 "2012-07-17T04:41:18Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > One question I have always had: the famous “Golden Triangle” area (the intersection of Laos, Vietnam, Thailand-this area was reputed to be a major heroin -producing area-is it still active? The Golden Triangle is the intersection of Thailand, Laos and _Burma_ (not Vietnam which has borders with neither Thailand nor Burma). I’ve little relevant expertise to answer your question (though I once slept with a girl who claimed to have slept with [Khun Sa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khun_Sa)) … but my impressions are: [ul][li] The world’s heroin center has shifted from the (once Khun Sa-controlled) Triangle to post-911 Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.[/li][li] Thailand has become less of a _source_ for drugs than a _destination_.[/li][li] Thailand’s major illegal drug these days is methamphetamine, not heroin. It comes from Burma but doesn’t particularly need the mountains near the “Triangle.”[/li][li] Thai government has focused much energy on its War on Drugs. Several years ago I heard that the retail price of heroin had skyrocketed and was as (or more?) expensive than in U.S.[/li][/ul] But if you take a trekking tour near Chiang Mai, I think there’s a pretty fair chance you’ll still be offered a pipe of opium. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/29 "2012-07-17T05:38:09Z")
Vietnam was united despite the efforts of outside powers. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/30 "2012-07-17T05:44:25Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You’re entitled to your wrong opinions, but not to your wrong facts. U.S. intervention cost at least a million lives (more if blamed for Cambodia as many do); it didn’t save them. I’d provide cites but we know such are of no interest to you. “Cost a million lives”: can you provide examples of how that many, or even close to that many, deaths were the direct result of US intervention, as opposed to North Vietnamese aggression? Oh, yes, you’re not gonna cite. And of course, in order to make your point, you needed to ignore mine, which was that our presence in South Vietnam helped to at least postpone the mass slaughter that finally ensued when the North Vietnamese took over (as well as the subsequent genocide in Cambodia). ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/31 "2012-07-17T05:45:36Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Vietnam was united despite the efforts of outside powers. Just as Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway, etc. were united in 1939-1940. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/32 "2012-07-17T05:46:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s pho sure! [Making pho in Griffith Park](http://www.flickr.com/photos/49289187@N02/sets/72157630615156692/)–on last July 4th, no less. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/33 "2012-07-17T05:49:30Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Just as Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway, etc. were united in 1939-1940. And of course Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway were recently freed colonial holdings, with a common culture and language who had been separated byntge superpowers.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/34 "2012-07-17T05:57:49Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Just as Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway, etc. were united in 1939-1940. Vietnam was united up until 1954 and it’s been united since 1975. I don’t see how keeping Vietnam split into two countries for a period of twenty years was a cause worth two million people dying. We’d have been better off staying out of it and letting the country reunite on schedule back in 1956. We could have let all the people in the south who wanted to leave come to America back then. They weren’t going to be killed by the communists if they were living in California. And the United States didn’t stop the mass slaughter in Cambodia. It was Vietnam that invaded and threw the Khmer Rouge out of power. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/35 "2012-07-17T07:52:25Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Just as Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway, etc. were united in 1939-1940. What an excellent point because Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway and the Low Countries had all been one country going back centuries only to be split into two separate countries when they kicked out their colonial rulers with the understanding that this would only be a temporary division with elections to be held in two years to unite the country. Only those elections were never held two years later because the leader in the south refused to allow them to take place because it was well known that the leader in the north would win by a landslide. So much so that the American president at the time said the ruler in the north would win 80% of the votes. Oh wait, no, none of that is remotely true; you’re making a rather poor attempt to godwinize the thread. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > “Cost a million lives”: can you provide examples of how that many, or even close to that many, deaths were the direct result of US intervention, as opposed to North Vietnamese aggression? Oh, yes, you’re not gonna cite. That’s remarkably easy to [provide](http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/vietnam/): > [@](#): > > The Vietnam War cost the United States 58,000 lives and 350,000 casualties. It also resulted in between one and two million Vietnamese deaths. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > And of course, in order to make your point, you needed to ignore mine, which was that our presence in South Vietnam helped to at least postpone the mass slaughter that finally ensued when the North Vietnamese took over (as well as the subsequent genocide in Cambodia). You might want to climb down off that high horse of yours acting as if the US did diddly squat to prevent the Cambodian Genocide, considering that the US both backed the Khmer Rouge as the legitimate government of Cambodia in the UN, [cite](http://www.historyplace.com/pointsofview/kiernan.htm) > [@](#): > > When the Vietnamese army ousted the Khmer Rouge in 1979, most of the world lined up in confrontationalist Cold War positions. By intervening, Hanoi was seen as having created ‘the Cambodian problem’ rather than having ended the genocide. With the support of Australia as well as the United States and China, the Khmer Rouge held on to Cambodia’s U.N. seat. The only major Western country that abstained, but did not vote against the Khmer Rouge on the issue, was France. but also provided clandestine military aid to them, [cite (warning, pdf)](http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/pilgerpolpotnus.pdf) > [@](#): > > By January 1980, the US was secretly funding Pol Pots exiled forces on the Thai border. The extent of this support - $85 million from 1980 to 1986 - was revealed six years later in correspondence between congressional lawyer Jonathan Winer, then counsel to Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation. Winer said the information had come from the Congressional Research Service (CRS). ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/36 "2012-07-17T08:48:50Z")
Sure, the Vietnamese finally threw out the imperialists and freed their country. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/37 "2012-07-17T09:19:26Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Sure, the Vietnamese finally threw out the imperialists and freed their country. Vietnam wasn’t free before and it isn’t free now. It’s just replaced one dictatorship with another. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/38 "2012-07-17T11:17:47Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > That’s remarkably easy to [provide](http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/vietnam/) I think he’s asking how many of those people would have died in the war anyway without us getting involved. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/39 "2012-07-17T11:51:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Vietnam wasn’t free before and it isn’t free now. It’s just replaced one dictatorship with another. It’s a dictatorship - who knew. The people have thrown out the imperialists. If the people want further change, they’ve shown they seem to know how, which may explain the free market reforms and private property initiatives. Talking of freedom, check out #1 and #117: > **[Highest to Lowest - Prison Population Total | World Prison Brief](https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?area=all&category=wb_poprate)** ---
**Author:** ![rmanbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e95f7d/32.png) [@rmanbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmanbike)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437/40 "2012-07-17T13:19:52Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > It’s a dictatorship - who knew. > > The people have thrown out the imperialists. If the people want further change, they’ve shown they seem to know how, which may explain the free market reforms and private property initiatives. > > Talking of freedom, check out #1 and #117: > [Highest to Lowest - Prison Population Total | World Prison Brief](http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate) What private property initiatives? Vietnamese dont own the land their sitting on, just some right to use it. But at any time the local or state authorities can revoke this right. Sure they have tried to create a market economy, improved some lives as you can find a few Bentleys around HCMC. If you follow the Bentley to their home, the other car they drive as a red license plate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-anything-good-come-out-of-the-vietnam-war/628437.md?page=3)