# Did Ayn Rand idolize a serial killer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323 "2011-04-14T03:01:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/61 "2011-04-14T23:52:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > One of her signature traits was not only a complete lack of empathy, but an actual _contempt_ for it. Got a cite for that? Not saying I know you’re wrong, but I don’t recall her saying empathy was bad. Pity, yes. She wasn’t big on charity, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/62 "2011-04-15T00:36:56Z")
Not in so many words, no. She used the word “pity,” which I think is the only way she understood empathy. ETA, Nietzsche was much the same, by the way, and he was a big influence on Rand. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/63 "2011-04-15T00:56:30Z")
I think Lenin was more of an influence, in a backhanded way. Her childhood experiences instilled a obsessive loathing for everything remotely communist or collectivist, and she sought to fill that out into a philosophy. Selfishness isn’t a virtue, even less a philosophy, its a character defect. And for monkeys, its a dead end, the monkey survives because the group survives, one monkey is a dead monkey. Rand glorifies the rational mind, and achieves the impossible, she exaggerates its importance. One might think such a wondrous thing couldn’t be overblown, but she did it. She managed to make a fanaticism out of reason, based on an unyielding and relentless materialism. Rather like Lenin. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/64 "2011-04-15T00:59:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Selfishness isn’t a virtue, even less a philosophy, its a character defect. Rand uses selfishness to mean “rational self-interest”. Whether or not that really is a character flaw is something I suppose people who want to can debate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/65 "2011-04-15T01:02:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Rand uses selfishness to mean “rational self-interest”. > Whether or not that really is a character flaw is something I suppose people who want to can debate. It’s not in my rational self-interest to debate that. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/66 "2011-04-15T01:13:09Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > And then later had an extended affair with a protege and couldn’t understand why neither her husband nor her lover was happy with the resulting situation. She was perfectly content with the setup. Within the context of Objectivist values, that relationship was inevitable . . . and so were its ultimate consequences. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/67 "2011-04-15T01:22:06Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > And then later had an extended affair with a protege and couldn’t understand why neither her husband nor her lover was happy with the resulting situation. She was perfectly content with the setup. > > As I recall reading about it, anyway. Someone feel free to correct that as needed… Way I read it, it started out even weirder than that: She gathered the three of them in a room and gravely announced that she had decided she and the protege should have an affair for the good of the Movement. But I don’t recall where I read that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/68 "2011-04-15T01:26:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > How is a lack of empathy equivalent to a lack of interest? Well, I very much doubt Alfred Adler meant “interested in his fellow men” in a purely intellectual sense, nor in a purely utilitarian sense. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/69 "2011-04-15T01:28:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But I don’t recall where I read that. Judgment Night. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/70 "2011-04-15T01:58:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I think Lenin was more of an influence, in a backhanded way. Her childhood experiences instilled a obsessive loathing for everything remotely communist or collectivist, and she sought to fill that out into a philosophy. > > Selfishness isn’t a virtue, even less a philosophy, its a character defect. And for monkeys, its a dead end, the monkey survives because the group survives, one monkey is a dead monkey. > > Rand glorifies the rational mind, and achieves the impossible, she exaggerates its importance. One might think such a wondrous thing couldn’t be overblown, but she did it. She managed to make a fanaticism out of reason, based on an unyielding and relentless materialism. Rather like Lenin. So which books of hers have you actually read? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/71 "2011-04-15T02:05:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So which books of hers have you actually read? ETA (too late): Actually, never mind. No need to hash the usual stuff in this thread. Needless to say, you’re as wrong as hell, and I doubt you’ve read a word she wrote. Rand very much wants the monkey group to survive, she just has different ideas about what’s best for the monkey group than you do. She shows how your ideas lead to the destruction of the group. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/72 "2011-04-15T02:38:26Z")
“Very different” meaning completely self-serving. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/73 "2011-04-15T02:52:04Z")
I’m a Rand rookie, is what she proposing closest to social-capitalism? “My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.” Seems like wankery. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/74 "2011-04-15T02:55:22Z")
She was pretty much completely _laissez faire_. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/75 "2011-04-15T03:10:05Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I’m a Rand rookie, is what she proposing closest to social-capitalism? > > “My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.” > > Seems like wankery. Go read Atlas Shrugged. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/76 "2011-04-15T03:24:47Z")
An all time masterpiece of wankery. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/77 "2011-04-15T03:31:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > An all time masterpiece of wankery. . . . which is a typical response from those incapable of understanding it. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/78 "2011-04-15T03:37:27Z")
Contrary to what some people would like to think, Rand’s attitude wasn’t “I’ve got mine, screw you.” It was more like “I’ve got mine, let me show you or inspire you to get your own.” She was extremely supportive of her followers, especially young people, who were trying to survive in a hostile society. And of course that society would consider her a sociopath, i.e. someone who opposes the values of that society . . . whether for good or evil. Her detractors could see that she was opposed to many of the values of that society, and that’s all they cared about. This - _ **and only this** _ - was her link to Hickman. They were both branded as “outsiders,” regardless of ethical considerations. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/79 "2011-04-15T03:49:35Z")
You know, when when the rare topic comes up in which I’m actually a subject-matter expert (or something close to it), my posts in the thread tend to be somewhat long, and filled with relevant information. This is, I think, the way it works for most people. So, it’s strange to me that **Rand Rover** hasn’t said anything about Ayn Rand. I’m really not trying to cast aspersions or subtly imply anything – it’s just weird is all. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/80 "2011-04-15T03:56:36Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > You know, when when the rare topic comes up in which I’m actually a subject-matter expert (or something close to it), my posts in the thread tend to be somewhat long, and filled with relevant information. This is, I think, the way it works for most people. > > So, it’s strange to me that **Rand Rover** hasn’t said anything about Ayn Rand. I’m really not trying to cast aspersions or subtly imply anything – it’s just weird is all. First, :rolleyes:. Second, I don’t think I’m necessarily a subject-matter expert on Ayn Rand or her philosophy (that’d be panache45). I’ve just read several of her books (and was doing so when it came time to pick a username) and I like certain aspects of her philosophy. Which of course means I’m an evil evil person who should be killed horribly as an example to others. Third, if LHOD wants to actually debate any of the assertions in his OP, then he’s perfectly free to make an argument for those assertions. If he does so I will respond in detail. He doesn’t appear to want to. So, I’ve simply pointed out that he’s failed to make an argument for his assertions, which is all I need to do at this point. Finally, I don’t think we need to rehash the same old stuff again, so I’m not responding at length to anything about Rand other than what’s on-topic for this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323.md?page=5)