# Did Ayn Rand idolize a serial killer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323 "2011-04-14T03:01:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/81 "2011-04-15T04:24:52Z")
Your prerogative, of course. And, given your minority status around here, I could certainly understand why you might fairly bristle at posts that would tend to put you on the defensive. It just seemed like the OP really was more about asking a question than making an accusation, and that it was a question on which you are \*relatively \*well suited to shed some light, even if only around the edges. As a former Rand enthusiast myself, I saw the thread title and your name as the last poster, and was looking forward to seeing what you’d written … hence my comment about my surprise. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/82 "2011-04-15T06:13:33Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Go read Atlas Shrugged. To steal from Dorothy Parker: “Not a book to be set aside lightly, but hurled with great force.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/83 "2011-04-15T06:54:58Z")
To steal and mangle, you mean. Parker’s actual comment (or at least the more commonly accepted, vis-a-vis 448,000 Google hits for mine vs. 8,550 for yours ;)) is: “This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force.” The problem you see, is that the first segment of the line, as you quoted it, sets up what is about to follow. The entire line has no surprise, no wit, and seems merely a grouse. But in the quote more often attributed to her, the end comes not only as a surprise but as a complete reversal of what you think is about to follow. That makes it not only funnier but wittier, and therefore more in line with the wit and humor that Ms. Parker was known for, and which was her style. I’m surprised that one so erudite as yourself should not have spotted this rather glaring incongruency. Regards, **SA** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/84 "2011-04-15T07:11:09Z")
Well, you know what Oscar Wilde said: being ignored by people is even worse than having them talking about you. And according to Mark Twain, he had refrained from smoking many times in his life and therefore interpreted this as meaning it’s easy to quit smoking. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/85 "2011-04-15T07:40:38Z")
Next up: painting lessons from Stevie Wonder. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/86 "2011-04-15T07:46:34Z")
Jerry Pournelle (PhD!) is also another right wing nutjob writer who occasionally gives his readers a completely sympathetic sociopath as a character and exposits oh so much more briefly on his motives. It’s a lot better than Rand. That may be because virtually all of these writings are co-written by the far less right wing (but still conservative) Larry Niven (or edited by him) and Niven is a damn good writer. See Lucifer’s Hammer, Inferno, the Mote in God’s Eye books and various short stories. Pournelle is an interesting conversationalist, but not someone to read without Larry toning it down. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/87 "2011-04-15T07:50:08Z")
Lots of people who read and admire Ayn Rand are not evil persons. They are self-centered, greedy, misanthropic and absolutely certain about everything. Most of them, however, grow out of their teenage immaturity. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/88 "2011-04-15T07:57:54Z")
Jerry Pournelle! Slooooowly I turned…inch by inch…step by step… ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/89 "2011-04-15T12:41:34Z")
> [@Burton](#): > > “…but rather Hickman’s explicit rejection of the mob’s authority.” Human society isn’t necessarily a mob, certainly not in the instance she refers too. Of course society rejects sociopaths as it should. Unless they’re entertaining, or rich and powerful. We only reject the ones who are overtly harmful. If you’re a billion-dollar a year CEO sociopath, the world is your oyster and your accolades will be many. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/90 "2011-04-15T14:17:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Go read Atlas Shrugged. Could you tell me what Objectivisim really means to you without me having to read 1300 pages? > [@Wiki](#): > > The name “Objectivism” derives from the principle that human knowledge and values are objective: they are not created by the thoughts one has, but are determined by the nature of reality, to be discovered by man’s mind. Her philosphy seems like a straw man. Who thinks knowledge is _not_ determined by the nature of reality? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/91 "2011-04-15T14:27:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Could you tell me what Objectivisim really means to you without me having to read 1300 pages? You’re in luck. You can now see the movie! I just read a review in the paper today. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/92 "2011-04-15T15:19:24Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Could you tell me what Objectivisim really means to you without me having to read 1300 pages? I coulkd but I choose not to. You could get a flavor of it by reading Anthem, which is really short (like 30 pages). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/93 "2011-04-15T15:46:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Could you tell me what Objectivisim really means to you without me having to read 1300 pages? [Here’s a good summary.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Objectivism) Don’t know how it accords with **Rand Rover’s** interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/94 "2011-04-15T15:48:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I coulkd but I choose not to. You could get a flavor of it by reading Anthem, which is really short (like 30 pages). And anyone who has ever tried to tackle _AS_ will find _The Fountainhead_ reads like the wind by comparison. (Of course, we’ve **all** read _Anthem,_ just because it was the shortest book on the summer reading list. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/95 "2011-04-15T18:18:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And anyone who has ever tried to tackle _AS_ will find _The Fountainhead_ reads like the wind by comparison. > > (Of course, we’ve **all** read _Anthem,_ just because it was the shortest book on the summer reading list. 😉 ) “We” don’t read Anthem. I read Anthem. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/96 "2011-04-15T18:29:24Z")
As a science fiction writer, she doesn’t compare well with L. Ron Hubbard. As a philosopher and deep thinker, she is on fairly even ground. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/97 "2011-04-15T19:18:41Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Lots of people who read and admire Ayn Rand are not evil persons. They are self-centered, greedy, misanthropic and absolutely certain about everything. Most of them, however, grow out of their teenage immaturity. You know, it’s possible to “read and admire” a writer while still disagreeing with her on many points. Or perhaps I’m the world’s oldest teenager. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/98 "2011-04-15T19:24:43Z")
Doesn’t two pages of the SDMB bashing her for being successful kind of support her philosophy? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/99 "2011-04-15T19:32:55Z")
In much the same way that a ten page blistering of GeeDubya’s WMD lies proves that they were there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/100 "2011-04-15T19:44:40Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Doesn’t two pages of the SDMB bashing her for being successful kind of support her philosophy? 😕 “Bashing her for being successful”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323.md?page=6)