# Did Ayn Rand idolize a serial killer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323 "2011-04-14T03:01:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/101 "2011-04-15T19:46:53Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > You know, it’s possible to “read and admire” a writer while still disagreeing with her on many points. But that is probably not the case, if you incorporate the writer’s name or pen name into your own username. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/102 "2011-04-15T19:57:38Z")
Morbid curiosity. What do Objectivists say about raising kids? “No, dear, Big Bird is a moocher and a robber…” Nothing likely from the font herself, her womb was apparently as barren as her soul. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/103 "2011-04-15T20:00:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In much the same way that a ten page blistering of GeeDubya’s WMD lies proves that they were there. Except that Rand was actually successful. Very successful. GWB and his WMDs… not so muich. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/104 "2011-04-15T20:11:17Z")
As is Justin Bieber, and the Kardashian sisters, and Scientology. So? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/105 "2011-04-15T20:26:42Z")
Just noting that your analogy between GWB’s WMDs and AR’s success is not a good one. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/106 "2011-04-15T20:39:01Z")
Naturally, I appreciate the generosity with which you offer corrections. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/107 "2011-04-15T20:53:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 “Bashing her for being successful”? I haven’t read the books in a decade but I believe that the central theme of the hero characters followed a pretty simple path. 1. The hero creates something or is successful in a way that nobody else can be. (Rand did this with the books) 2. The work/success is marginalized by society in some way, ie. Saying it was luck, or attacking the person rather than the work. > [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > And then later had an extended affair with a protege and couldn’t understand why neither her husband nor her lover was happy with the resulting situation. She was perfectly content with the setup. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The main appeal of Ayn Rand’s books is to high school students. I wonder what happens to them when they discover that becoming an Objectivist does not give them the talents of an Ayn Rand hero. > > It is important to be liked. Those who make it clear that they only care about themselves are rarely likable. 1. Society claiming that the successful owe the unsuccessful something because of their success. > [@elucidator](#): > > Selfishness isn’t a virtue, even less a philosophy, its a character defect. And for monkeys, its a dead end, the monkey survives because the group survives, one monkey is a dead monkey. If she were here to say “Fuck it, I’m outta here” we would have Atlas Shrugged ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/108 "2011-04-15T22:59:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Naturally, I appreciate the generosity with which you offer corrections. In a thread about Ayn Rand, we don’t discuss generosity. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/109 "2011-04-15T23:40:02Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > You know, it’s possible to “read and admire” a writer while still disagreeing with her on many points. > > Or perhaps I’m the world’s oldest teenager. Who’s to say you aren’t. My beef with Ms. Rand is that she is a mediocre writer who is a teacher of evil. Machiavelli has an excuse with The Prince in that he intended it not for the whole world, but for an audience of one Lorenzo di Medici. Much the same way I have to hesitate to condemn a writer who has a private diary studying a sociopathic killer for reasons not specified, but probably character study to make fiction. That her protagonists and philosophy are also sociopathic and can be nicely summed up with the private entry admiring Hickman points out why it is evil. It is no accident that Hitler and Stalin had The Prince as their favorite book, kept on their nightstand. It is a study of how to be a sociopath. Machiavelli never meant it to be published. Rand certainly meant her oeuvre of evil to be published, because she published it. I might point out that having a bunch of emotionally immature people mistake her ravings for philosophy is not a measure of success, but more of the extent of her failure to contribute something positive to humanity. Had she made a lot of money in her lifetime that might have been a success by one of her own measures. But recent freedom of information act requests show that she collected (get it, collected?) her own social security and possibly medicare benefits. [SURGA88 | Situs Aman dan terpercaya 2025](http://www.cynical-c.com/2011/01/27/ayn-rand-received-social-security/) She didn’t so much “go Galt” as sold out. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/110 "2011-04-15T23:40:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > In a thread about Ayn Rand, we don’t discuss generosity. Actually, as I understand it, Rand did not believe people should put the welfare of others ahead of their own, but she was fine with generosity as long as one’s own needs were sufficiently provided for first, and as long as it was self-generated and not a result of societal pressures. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/111 "2011-04-15T23:49:14Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Who’s to say you aren’t. My beef with Ms. Rand is that she is a mediocre writer who is a teacher of evil. Nonsense. Teaching independence and self-reliance is not evil. And a desire not to be forced to assist others is not evil. In her view, as I said just above, it is fine to assist others if you want to and as long as you don’t have to suffer deprivation of your own in order to provide it, but nothing Rand taught was evil by any reasonable definition of the term. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/112 "2011-04-15T23:49:24Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Who’s to say you aren’t. My beef with Ms. Rand is that she is a mediocre writer who is a teacher of evil. What is this “evil” of which you speak? > [@](#): > > Had she made a lot of money in her lifetime that might have been a success by one of her own measures. But recent freedom of information act requests show that she collected (get it, collected?) her own social security and possibly medicare benefits. [SURGA88 | Situs Aman dan terpercaya 2025](http://www.cynical-c.com/2011/01/27/ayn-rand-received-social-security/) She didn’t so much “go Galt” as sold out. Must we do this yet again…? There is nothing anti-Objectivist (or anti-libertarian, for that matter) about accepting funds from a government program that you were forced to support through your own taxes. If you’re going to criticize a philosophy, at least take the time to understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/113 "2011-04-16T00:33:35Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > 1. The work/success is marginalized by society in some way, ie. Saying it was luck, or attacking the person rather than the work. Why on earth would you quote me below the above quoted bit? Stating the facts – which is what I did – is not “attacking the person”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/114 "2011-04-16T01:04:03Z")
I eagerly await the first volume of Objectivist poetry. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/115 "2011-04-16T01:19:09Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I might point out that having a bunch of emotionally immature people mistake her ravings for philosophy is not a measure of success, but more of the extent of her failure to contribute something positive to humanity. N.B.: The books for which Rand is best known are full of ravings, but she also **had** [an actual philosophy,](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Objectivism) a philosophical system in the academic sense of the term. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/116 "2011-04-16T01:22:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I eagerly await the first volume of Objectivist poetry. Oh, who gives a fuck about poetry? We’re talking about money here! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/117 "2011-04-16T01:36:08Z")
When I win the lottery, I will pay for a demographic study to determine if there are more recovering Objectivists on the SDMB or in Mensa. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/118 "2011-04-16T01:37:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I eagerly await the first volume of Objectivist poetry. An Objectivist Atlas will shrug When his GF won’t go past a hug Self-reliant as Rand Is his own nimble hand On his Fountainhead ready to tug! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/119 "2011-04-16T05:18:06Z")
It’s a collectivist fault To not know John Galt ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323/120 "2011-04-16T13:11:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I eagerly await the first volume of Objectivist poetry. Actually, she did enjoy one poet, and I can’t remember whether it was Strindberg or Swinburne. She also liked Mohammed Ali, but I don’t think it was because of his poetry. And yes, there’s nothing non-Objectivist about collecting Social Security and Medicare if you’ve paid into the system throughout your career. It would be considered “selfless altruism” to turn it down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-idolize-a-serial-killer/578323.md?page=7)