# Did Ayn Rand sincerely believe that Objectivism would be good for mankind? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784 "2013-07-17T20:32:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/141 "2013-07-24T07:00:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > An example I alluded to earlier in this thread is the “train in the tunnel” disaster. The good part of this chapter is that it is a superb exploration of how industrial accidents happen. It’s almost an exact fore-telling of the Chernobyl disaster. > > But that bad part of this chapter is that, at the end, when she lists the identities of the people killed in the accident…not a single one of them is an innocent bystander. Instead, Rand goes out of her way to identify each one of them as a stooge, oppressor, or “bad guy” in one way or another. > > \ > This cartoonish ending ruins what is otherwise a very insightful chapter. I don’t remember the chapter you speak about at all. But in general, she definitely is at her best when describing the impact of a socialist/communist mindset on productive activity. The perverse incentives set up by it end up stifling productive activity pretty thoroughly. I personally think she did a pretty good job of foretelling the downfall of the Soviet Union as well. (Yes, I recognise that there were many other strains on the Soviet Union without which it may not have fallen quite so far. It would still have gone pretty low though) Perhaps that’s what leads her to consider the opposite extreme as an ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/142 "2013-07-24T07:52:00Z")
I’m very interested, bldysabba, but some have been studying her a lot longer than I have, so I admit I am a bit nervous to jump in too much. The truth is, I read more than I post in Great Debates, and having no formal education in philosophy at all, I do worry sometimes that I am misinterpreting some of what I read. That’s the thing though…in this case, it seems she speaks very plainly about her ideas, and yet both sides seem to misunderstand her. Gives me a complex, that maybe I’M the only one misunderstanding her. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/143 "2013-07-24T08:30:03Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I’m very interested, bldysabba, but some have been studying her a lot longer than I have, so I admit I am a bit nervous to jump in too much. The truth is, I read more than I post in Great Debates, and having no formal education in philosophy at all, I do worry sometimes that I am misinterpreting some of what I read. That’s the thing though…in this case, it seems she speaks very plainly about her ideas, and yet both sides seem to misunderstand her. Gives me a complex, that maybe I’M the only one misunderstanding her. Nah. I’d say it’s the usual situation where the loudest voices on both sides drown out the middle. It’s a good thing that (largely) hasn’t happened in this thread, although there certainly were indications it might. Also, I don’t think a formal education in philosophy is required at all to be able to evaluate an argument or present a cogent one in turn. I think my posts already make it clear that I agree with you about her ideas, which I think are badly misrepresented, especially by her critics (that I’ve noticed at least), and given how much ad hominem there is, and how poorly those misrepresentations are backed up (witness some of the early posts in this thread), we really should feel more comfortable in dismissing them. (I say this rather blithely, but I’ve often felt worried about speaking my mind about Ayn Rand too. Still speak it though 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/144 "2013-07-24T08:34:51Z")
Well, I certainly appreciated your contributions. It has been an informative thread for me. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/145 "2013-07-24T11:36:38Z")
I’m here to say one nice, OT thing about Ayn Rand: she liked **Fredric Brown** (even if not for the same reasons most of us like him), who wrote _Martians Go Home_ Brown also wrote the immortal: “The last man on Earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door…” ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/146 "2013-07-24T18:59:54Z")
Shivers. Every time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/147 "2013-07-25T14:34:49Z")
And then [there’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=697556) [this](http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2013/07/29/130729sh_shouts_hodgman). > [@](#): > > I find it to be an offensive irony, a toxic irony, that Lyndon Baines Johnson—the founder of the so-called Great Society, which I consider to be the greatest insult to the individual man since Immanuel Kant first laid out his preposterous theory of the noumenal, that is to say, not objective reality—that I should share with this man, this evil man, the same love of the soft drink Fresca. They say it is a grapefruit soda, but I think it has a different flavor. What do you think? Most of the excerpts are even sillier. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/148 "2013-07-25T21:03:28Z")
Well, this one is pretty human > [@](#): > > This week, you may have seen that I was interviewed by Phil Donahue, of the television program “Donahue.” Some thought fireworks would fly, and it is true that Donahue is a collectivist and an apologist for the weak. But, if you detected that I liked him, you were correct. I cannot help it. He has a good sense of humor, and his hair is so snowy and silly. During a break, I turned to him and said, “I think you should tell your wife, Marlo Thomas, to rename her long-playing record ‘Free to Be Only Me.’ ” We laughed and laughed. as is this one, for completely different reasons > [@](#): > > Because Ronald Reagan has deposed Jimmy Carter, and I predict that by 2013 my influence will be profound, and a new generation of leaders will hallow my name, and devotion to self-interest and capitalism and the free market will not be the exception but the rule, and these leaders will naturally share my disapproval of religion, my support of abortion rights, and my love of Godiva chocolates. I have to stop writing now, because I have chewed through my typewriter. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/149 "2013-07-25T23:21:54Z")
Okay, those aren’t real, right? At least the second one sounds completely bogus. But what’s “human” about “apologist for the weak”? That sounds pretty damn antagonistic, callous and misanthropic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/150 "2013-07-25T23:23:57Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > as is this one, for completely different reasons Specifically, because the naivete is so charming. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/151 "2013-07-26T01:04:06Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, those aren’t real, right? At least the second one sounds completely bogus. > > But what’s “human” about “apologist for the weak”? That sounds pretty damn antagonistic, callous and misanthropic. Depends on what one means by ‘weak’. If by weak, we mean, lacking the values that some of us think are crucial…strength in the face of adversity, courage, willingness to fight…then, yeah, I can see why one shouldn’t be making apologies for a man who is weak in that way. If you think weak means those who are unfortunate, poor, disabled…then I agree that her comment comes off as callous. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/152 "2013-07-26T01:20:21Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Depends on what one means by ‘weak’. If by weak, we mean, lacking the values that some of us think are crucial…strength in the face of adversity, courage, willingness to fight…then, yeah, I can see why one shouldn’t be making apologies for a man who is weak in that way. > > If you think weak means those who are unfortunate, poor, disabled…then I agree that her comment comes off as callous. I have my doubts as to whether Rand was capable of drawing, or inclined to draw, that distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/153 "2013-07-26T10:54:10Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Depends on what one means by ‘weak’. If by weak, we mean, lacking the values that some of us think are crucial…strength in the face of adversity, courage, willingness to fight…then, yeah, I can see why one shouldn’t be making apologies for a man who is weak in that way. > > If you think weak means those who are unfortunate, poor, disabled…then I agree that her comment comes off as callous. Well, we could fashion any number of alternate definitions that make the comment acceptable among decent people. Perhaps she meant murderers (people weak in ethical or moral practices); Phil Donahue was apologizing for murderers. A huge problem with her agenda (it cannot remotely be called a philosophy) is the two dimensional simplicity of it. There are looters and moochers! Donahue is an apologist for them! This doesn’t sound any different to me than someone like Rush Limbaugh suggesting that black people are genetically inferior since they live in poverty; that they care less about their children since they fund schools so poorly… They lack strength in the face of adversity or willingness to fight. It’s inherent in their constitutions. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/154 "2013-07-26T17:51:27Z")
I hope you all realize that the _New Yorker_ link was a satire by John Hodgman, not Rand’s own words. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/155 "2013-07-26T18:04:11Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I hope you all realize that the _New Yorker_ link was a satire by John Hodgman, not Rand’s own words. Hodgman? Not Poe? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/156 "2013-07-26T19:03:58Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I hope you all realize that the _New Yorker_ link was a satire by John Hodgman, not Rand’s own words. I didn’t click the link, but those quotes are certainly…over the top! She had a thing about weakness, for sure, though. “The word “We” is as lime poured over men, which sets and hardens to stone, and crushes all beneath it, and that which is white and that which is black are lost equally in the grey of it. It is the word by which the depraved steal the virtue of the good, by which the weak steal the might of the strong, by which the fools steal the wisdom of the sages. " ETA: Hentor, I don’t know why people often bring up a racist analogy when they are trying to convince me of something. It never works that way with me. I don’t care how Rush Limbaugh twists facts to say that blacks are inferior, it is clear as crystal to me that weak doesn’t always mean poor and unlucky. For many people, including me, it conjures up visions of cowardice. As a matter of fact, the poor and unlucky and disabled are often referred to as strong and courageous. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/157 "2013-07-26T19:38:40Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I hope you all realize that the _New Yorker_ link was a satire by John Hodgman, not Rand’s own words. The last bit, and especially the reference to 2013 had some bells ringing, but it was played too straight. I even checked around but eventually figured it may be true. \ ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/158 "2013-07-26T21:21:37Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > As a matter of fact, the poor and unlucky and disabled are often referred to as strong and courageous. The problem is that according to Rand’s philosophy, as long as they aren’t beaten down by the weak/moochers, the strong will succeed on their own merits. There are those in society who due to bad-luck and disability won’t succeed no matter how strong their character. Those are the people that Rand seems to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/159 "2013-07-26T21:27:38Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I didn’t click the link, but those quotes are certainly…over the top! > > She had a thing about weakness, for sure, though. > > “The word “We” is as lime poured over men, which sets and hardens to stone, and crushes all beneath it, and that which is white and that which is black are lost equally in the grey of it. It is the word by which the depraved steal the virtue of the good, by which the weak steal the might of the strong, by which the fools steal the wisdom of the sages. " > > ETA: Hentor, I don’t know why people often bring up a racist analogy when they are trying to convince me of something. It never works that way with me. I don’t care how Rush Limbaugh twists facts to say that blacks are inferior, it is clear as crystal to me that weak doesn’t always mean poor and unlucky. For many people, including me, it conjures up visions of cowardice. As a matter of fact, the poor and unlucky and disabled are often referred to as strong and courageous. Hmm. Well I sure wouldn’t have made the analogy if I was talking to someone else! I would have chosen some other group for whom the effects of systematic intergenerational disadvantage are confused with inherently characterological qualities by conservatives. You have caught my hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784/160 "2013-07-26T21:35:17Z")
Honest to god, I have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t think you are a hypocrite, nor did I imply anything at all about hypocrisy. The idea that you are a hypocrite never occurred to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ayn-rand-sincerely-believe-that-objectivism-would-be-good-for-mankind/663784.md?page=9)