# Did Billy Joel ever write a good refrain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934 "2005-01-04T01:37:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/1 "2005-01-04T01:37:59Z")
I kinda like Billy Joel as singer/songwriters go. He’s an ok singer, an accomplished piano player and entertainer (sic!) and knows how to write a good tune. Yet, whenever I listen to him, the chorus and the bridges promise things the refrain never delivers. _New York State of mind, River of Dreams, The Stranger, Scenes from an Italian Restaurant, She’s always a woman, We didn’t start the fire…_ Was his problem that he wrote great music, but never managed to do a single catchy “hook”? _Don’t go changing_ will keep him financially independent for the rest of hislife, but it really lacks a good catchy hook as well. Is it just me? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/2 "2005-01-04T01:42:58Z")
I dunno, “We Didn’t Start the Fire” has a tendency to stick in my head and not get unstuck. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/3 "2005-01-04T01:52:06Z")
> [@Tracy Lord](#): > > I dunno, “We Didn’t Start the Fire” has a tendency to stick in my head and not get unstuck. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/4 "2005-01-04T02:03:25Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > Yet, whenever I listen to him, the chorus and the bridges promise things the refrain never delivers. I’m confused: To me the refrain and the chorus are the same thing – that repeated “verse” that goes between the different ones. Can you clarify what part of the song you’re talking about? Not sure what you mean by his “problem” successwise – seems to me he’s rich and famous. Not touring anymore, but that’s by choice. One of the main things I like about him is that his lyrics ARE sharp and interesting and different, rather than just being repetitive filler. One time in high school, we were just hanging around in class before the bell rang at the end of the day and my English teacher picked up the lyric sheet I had out for whatever BJ cassette was in my Walkman that day. He perused it a bit and said – I forget the words exactly, but it was a compliment to the quality of the lyrics. IMHO, people who say they DON’T like BJ have only heard the singles on the radio that have been played to death. His better stuff is the non-singles. ---
**Author:** ![SlickRoenick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SlickRoenick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlickRoenick)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/5 "2005-01-04T02:03:53Z")
Isn’t a chorus and refrain the same thing? What about _Piano Main_? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/6 "2005-01-04T03:09:06Z")
Maybe it’s a Swedish thing? In the US, any of the songs you mentioned would “keep him financially independent for the rest of his life”. He’s been that succesful. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/7 "2005-01-04T03:34:15Z")
I kinda think I know what The Gaspode is talking about. I like a lot of Joel’s songs, but none of them have a really solid, memorable lyrical “hook” in the refrain, though some do in other places. The refrain always trails off somehow though the song may start strong: Uptown Girl! You’ve been living in your la la la Too bad you la la la la la la la la lal lal We were keeping the faith keeping the faith la la lal la keeping the faith la lal la lal la Why were you so surprised You never saw the danger lal lal la stranger lal lal la la yourself Compare with stronger refrains You will come to know When the bullet hits the bone or I want to fuck you like an animal I want to feel you from the inside I want to fuck you like an animal My whole existence is flawed You get me closer to god or more recently, and probably the strongest refrain of the bunch Fathers be good to your daughters Daughters will love like you do Girls become lovers who turn into mothers So mothers be good to your daughters, too I’m not sure why Joel’s lyrics trail off like that. It might be structural in the case of The Stranger, which isn’t your typical setup. But a lot of his stuff has a very standard kinda structure … see Uptown Girl for example. It’s a puzzler. ---
**Author:** ![Only\_Mostly\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f19dbf/32.png) [@Only\_Mostly\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Only_Mostly_Dead)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/8 "2005-01-04T04:18:21Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Compare with stronger refrains > > You will come to know > When the bullet hits the bone > > or > > I want to fuck you like an animal > I want to feel you from the inside > I want to fuck you like an animal > My whole existence is flawed > You get me closer to god > > or more recently, and probably the strongest refrain of the bunch > > Fathers be good to your daughters > Daughters will love like you do > Girls become lovers who turn into mothers > So mothers be good to your daughters, too Yes, I know it’s Golden Earring “Twilight Zone” first, but I don’t think all too many people would. And I didn’t know the exact wording of the first line of that one. I thought it was along the lines of slurred “And you don’t know.” I think there’s memorable Billy Joel refrains. There’s just so many songs that you can lose the quoteable ones in the songs that boil down to confused la-la’ing. How about: Captain Jack will get you high tonight And take you to your special island Captain Jack will get you by tonight Just a little push ‘n’ you’ll be smilin’ Sing us a song, you’re the piano man Sing us a song tonight We’re all in the mood for a melody and you’ve got us feeling alright We didn’t start the fire It was always burning Since the world’s been turning We didn’t start the fire No we didn’t light it But we tried to fight it Okay, I’ll admit, I looked up a decent enough list of songs he’s done, and many have no real chorus to be repetitive and memorable (Shameless, Uptown Girl, River of Dreams), or their chorus (or theme, if you prefer) is largely not lyrical, it’s primarily instrumental (Pressure, The Entertainer) or just nonsense syllables (Piano Man’s bridge is just as memorable as its chorus, and it’s just lots of La’s.) …and now I’ll have NIN “Closer” in my head all day at work tomorrow. Bastard. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lost\_in\_the\_post](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/50afbb/32.png) [@lost\_in\_the\_post](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost_in_the_post)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/9 "2005-01-04T04:52:56Z")
> [@Scarlett67](#): > > his lyrics ARE sharp and interesting and different, rather than just being repetitive filler. … IMHO, people who say they DON’T like BJ have only heard the singles on the radio that have been played to death. His better stuff is the non-singles. Hm. Yeah, you’re right, his songs just don’t really need catchy refrains, they’re not built like that. Then again, I always kind of liked, I don’t care to know the hour 'cause it’s passing anyway I don’t have to see tomorrow 'cause I saw it yesterday… Though in the context of the song, it doesn’t exactly act like a normal refrain. ---
**Author:** ![Kepi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kepi/32/7251_2.png) [@Kepi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/10 "2005-01-04T06:09:01Z")
> [@lost in the post](#): > > Hm. Yeah, you’re right, his songs just don’t really need catchy refrains, they’re not built like that. I agree. He doesn’t write his songs with a verse-chorus-verse-chorus pattern. They are more like poems and rarely have refrains that are identical each time they occur in the song. And when he does include a “typical” chorus, he usually changes the words from one instance to the next. An example from _This Is The Time_: **1st chorus** This is the time to remember 'Cause it will not last forever These are the days to hold on to 'Cause we won’t, although we’ll want to This is the time, But time is gonna change You’ve given me the best of you But now I need the rest of you **2nd chorus** This is the time to remember 'Cause it will not last forever These are the days to hold on to 'Cause we won’t, although we want to This is the time, But time is gonna change I know we’ve got to move somehow But I don’t want to lose you now Or from _Big Shot_: **1st chorus** Because you had to be a big shot, didn’t you You had to open up your mouth You had to be a big shot, didn’t you All your friends were so knocked out You had to have the last word, last night You know what everything’s about You had to have a white hot spotlight You had to be a big shot last night **2nd chorus** Yes, yes, you had to be a big shot, didn’t you You had to prove it to the crowd You had to be a big shot, didn’t you All your friends were so knocked out You had to have the last word, last night You’re so much fun to be around You had to have the front page, bold type You had to be a big shot last night But he has been known to write a “typical” chorus that is repeated the same each time throughout the song. From _Honesty_: Honesty is such a lonely word Everyone is so untrue Honesty is hardly ever heard And mostly what I need from you ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/11 "2005-01-04T07:13:47Z")
I dunno, I think many of the lyrics in the OP are memorable – I mean, I remember them, so that makes 'em memorable to me at least! Also, what about: **My Life** _I don’t need you to worry for me cause I’m alright I don’t want you to tell me it’s time to come home I don’t care what you say anymore, this is my life Go ahead with your own life, and leave me alone_ (Of course, I always used to think it was “Go to hell with your own life…”) **You May Be Right** _You may be right I may be crazy But it just may be a lunatic you’re looking for Turn out the light Don’t try to save me You may be wrong for all I know But you may be right_ I hate to say it, 'cause maybe I’m woefully old-fashioned and just plain old (38), but IMHO, the lyrics **Evil Captor** quoted? Suck. No offense, dude. (Besides, that " I wanna fuck you like an animal" song is an _obvious_ rip-off of Cole Porter and Noel Coward.) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/12 "2005-01-04T07:26:54Z")
> [@choie](#): > > (Besides, that " I wanna fuck you like an animal" song is an _obvious_ rip-off of Cole Porter and Noel Coward.) 😃 Never been a big Billy Joel fan - I find his lyrics too…dime store psychoanalytical? But that is not the point to the thread. I think the point has been made - his songs aren’t geared toward classic pop choruses. While I find his songwriting weak - even though lots of folks love it - I don’t see that as a particular problem… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/13 "2005-01-04T08:06:44Z")
1. She cuts you once, she cuts you twice But still you believe The wound is so fresh you can taste the blood But you don’t have strength to leave You’ve been bought, you’ve been sold You’ve been locked outside the door But you stand there pleadin’ With your insides bleedin’ 'Cause deep down you want some more 1. They held a concert out in Brooklyn To watch the island bridges blow They turned our power down And drove us underground But we went right on with the show I’ve seen the lights go out on Broadway I saw the ruins at my feet You know we almost didn’t notice it We’d seen it all the time on Forty second street 1. I’ve done everything I can What else am I supposed to do I’m her machine And she can punch all the keys And she can push any button I was programmed through 1. Give a moment or two to the angry young man With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand He’s been stabbed in the back he’s been misunderstood It’s a comfort to know his intentions are good And he sits in his room with a lock on the door With his maps and his medals laid out on the floor And he likes to be known as the angry young man 1. Blackout, heatwave, .44 caliber homicide The buns drop dead and dogs go mad In packs on the West Side Young girl standing on a ledge looks like another suicide She wants to hit those bricks 'Cause the news at six gotta stick to a deadline While the millionaires hide in Beekman Place The bag ladies throw their bones in my face I get attacked by a kid with stereo sound I don’t want to hear it but he won’t turn it down Life is tough but it’s just enough To hold back the tears until it’s closing time I survived, I’m still alive But I’m getting close to the borderline Close to the borderline Any better, **Evil Captor**? (No. 4 was written about certain dopers, I believe). ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/14 "2005-01-04T09:03:51Z")
Damn. Yes. Verse, bridge, chorus/refrain. The Stranger: Don’t be afraid to try again Everyone goes south Every now and then You’ve done it, why can’t Someone else? You should know by now You’ve been there yourself New York State of Mind: It was so easy living day by day Out of touch with the rhythm and blues But now I need a little give and take The New York Times, The Daily News It’s just that the verses have such a punch and the refrains are… weak. Not seldom done by the backup singers. Or if there’s a refrain, it’s a single line: Only the good die young, Just the way you are, She’s always a woman to me, It’s still Rock’n’Roll to me. ---
**Author:** ![Anastasaeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Anastasaeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anastasaeon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/15 "2005-01-04T09:11:56Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I hate to say it, 'cause maybe I’m woefully old-fashioned and just plain old (38), but IMHO, the lyrics **Evil Captor** quoted? Suck. No offense, dude. > > (Besides, that " I wanna fuck you like an animal" song is an _obvious_ rip-off of Cole Porter and Noel Coward.) Ah, but you’ll not forget them anytime soon, eh? 😉 Now, _I’ll_ have that song stuck in my head for the rest of the night and most of tomorrow, as well. And for that, **EvilCaptor** , I thank you - sincerely! I _love_ that song! Maybe it’s just because I’m younger… but ol’ Billy’s lyrics don’t stay with me, either. Catchy little tune-writer, him. But I can never remember the words. lalalala… lalala… la! Good tunes, good tunes. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/16 "2005-01-04T10:28:01Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > Damn. Yes. Verse, bridge, chorus/refrain. > > The Stranger: > Don’t be afraid to try again > Everyone goes south > Every now and then > You’ve done it, why can’t > Someone else? > You should know by now > You’ve been there yourself > > New York State of Mind: > It was so easy living day by day > Out of touch with the rhythm and blues > But now I need a little give and take > The New York Times, The Daily News Aren’t those both bridges? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/17 "2005-01-04T13:07:18Z")
If so, where’s the chorus? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/18 "2005-01-04T13:32:53Z")
There is no chorus. :Lots of pop songs don’t have chorises, per se. The Beatles often avoided them (“A Day in the Life”, “When I’m 64”, “For the Benefit of Mr. Kite” - and that’s just one album), for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/19 "2005-01-04T14:02:50Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I hate to say it, 'cause maybe I’m woefully old-fashioned and just plain old (38), but IMHO, the lyrics **Evil Captor** quoted? Suck. No offense, dude. > > (Besides, that " I wanna fuck you like an animal" song is an _obvious_ rip-off of Cole Porter and Noel Coward.) Actually that “animal” lyric is JUST PERFECT for the song in question, especially with the rasping, breathy delivery. And you remember after hearing it … once. The same with that Daughters lyric. I don’t even LIKE the Daughters lyrics, I think the song is kinda smarmy, but I had the lyrics memorized after hearing them once, and I wasn’t trying to do that at all. Very few Billy Joel lyrics of which that can be said. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/20 "2005-01-04T14:03:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There is no chorus. > > :Lots of pop songs don’t have chorises, per se. The Beatles often avoided them (“A Day in the Life”, “When I’m 64”, “For the Benefit of Mr. Kite” - and that’s just one album), for instance. We’re gonna get all tangled up as a group on this, but it depends on how you define a pop song. I would NOT define any of the Beatles songs listed above as pop songs - maybe “64” with “Will ya still need me, will ya still feed me…” as the “catchy” part. To me, a pop song is about 3 minutes, has a relatively standard structure and a catchy melody that can cross over and invade your mind. Hard Day’s Night, She Loves You, I Wanna Hold Your Hand - pop songs Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day in the Life - not pop songs Afternoon Delight, Seasons in the Sun, Billy Don’t Be a Hero - (awful) pop songs. I think of Billy Joel songs like Pressure, My Life and Only the Good Die Young. Those, to me, are pop songs. They aren’t bad, but only Only the Good Die Young is a truly great song - most of his stuff is only okay to me… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934.md?page=2)