# Did Billy Joel ever write a good refrain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934 "2005-01-04T01:37:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/21 "2005-01-04T14:15:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Any better, **Evil Captor**? > > (No. 4 was written about certain dopers, I believe). I’m not saying Joel writes badly – he writes very well. As I said, I like a lot of his stuff. No “rocks and birds and plants and things” from him! But I still think his refrains are lacking in strong hooks. The one from “Piano Man” is probably the strongest he’s done. Consistently strong refrain hooks might well mess up his songs and make them less fun to listen to. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/22 "2005-01-04T15:16:14Z")
ITA. BJ to me is not as contemplative or poetic as Kenny Loggins or James Taylor–BJ is not folky enough. But he is not pop enough either. He is an amalgam of at least 2 different genres-thoughtful lyrics, jazzy piano, pop structure to alot of his songs. I like him, and I have several of his CD’s–but I don’t hum him or get a tune (exception: We Didn’t Light the Fire) stuck in my head. maybe that is one reason he is popular–he is not cookie cutter pop? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/23 "2005-01-04T16:47:21Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > We’re gonna get all tangled up as a group on this, but it depends on how you define a pop song. I would NOT define any of the Beatles songs listed above as pop songs - maybe “64” with “Will ya still need me, will ya still feed me…” as the “catchy” part. > > To me, a pop song is about 3 minutes, has a relatively standard structure and a catchy melody that can cross over and invade your mind. > > Hard Day’s Night, She Loves You, I Wanna Hold Your Hand - pop songs > > Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day in the Life - not pop songs > > Afternoon Delight, Seasons in the Sun, Billy Don’t Be a Hero - (awful) pop songs. > > I think of Billy Joel songs like Pressure, My Life and Only the Good Die Young. Those, to me, are pop songs. They aren’t bad, but only Only the Good Die Young is a truly great song - most of his stuff is only okay to me… Well, what else would you call “A Day in the Life” if not pop? It’s not rock. It’s not jazz, it’s not blues, it’s not folk. Just calling it a “song” seens kind of vague to me. “Pop” is nothing more than an abbreviation of “popular music”. The Beatles sang pop songs, alongside a plethora of other styles. Paul Simon sings pop and folk. Frank Sinatra sang pop songs, too - much of what we know as “Americana” are nothing more than very good pop tunes that have been around for a long time. The idea that pop means a three-minute ditty with a catchy hook comes from disgruntled rockers who don’t thing the music on the radio is loud enough. Fact of the matter is, pop is no better or worse than any other music style; for every bad pop song, I can bring you a crappy piece of rock-n-roll. As to Billy Joel, the examples you bring hint that you only know the stuff that plays on the radio. Joel is a grwat songwriter and a decent singer, but he has a nasty habit of releasing his dumbest, most shallow songs as dingles, while leaving his better stuff on the albums. I made a compelation disk of his best songs some time ago, and I doubt you’d recognize half of them. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/24 "2005-01-04T16:56:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > . . . he has a nasty habit of releasing his dumbest, most shallow songs as [s]ingles, while leaving his better stuff on the albums. I made a compelation disk of his best songs some time ago, and I doubt you’d recognize half of them. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the record company decide what’s going to be a single, rather than the artist? Isn’t it based on what’s most suited for radio airplay (not too long, most likely to be commercially successful – in other words, just like everything else that’s out there and keyed to the lowest common denominator)? I have a similar compilation tape myself. I think “My Life” is the only song on it that most people have heard. ---
**Author:** ![RobuSensei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/919ad9/32.png) [@RobuSensei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobuSensei)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/25 "2005-01-04T17:49:23Z")
> [@Scarlett67](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the record company decide what’s going to be a single, rather than the artist? Isn’t it based on what’s most suited for radio airplay (not too long, most likely to be commercially successful – in other words, just like everything else that’s out there and keyed to the lowest common denominator)? I think Billy is annoyed by this too. To wit: > [@](#): > > I am the entertainer > I come to do my show > You’ve heard my latest record > It’s been on the radio > Ah, it took me years to write it > They were the best years of my life > It was a beautiful song > But it ran too long > If you’re gonna have a hit > You gotta make it fit > So they cut it down to 3:05 ---
**Author:** ![fishbicycle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aeb1de/32.png) [@fishbicycle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishbicycle)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/26 "2005-01-04T18:59:32Z")
I’ve always liked Billy Joel. Not as a rabid fan, but I do have six or seven of his LPs and the “Essential Billy Joel” 2CD set. I know a fair amount of his material, some of it very well. One of my favorites of his what you might call “pop singles” is “Get It Right The First Time”. It has a chorus, and a good one, too! I will always have a special place in my heart for “Scenes From An Italian Restaurant” and “Allentown” - which continues to blow me away every time I hear it. [slight hijack] I saw The Four Seasons perform “Uptown Girl” at the Skydome in Toronto, along with numerous other acts (including Chuck Berry). The song was on the charts at the same time, and they said they were going to play a bit of it in tribute to Joel. They did a pretty passable job of it, too, sort of playing it off the top of their heads. I thought it was a really unique thing for them to do. [/slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/27 "2005-01-04T19:15:39Z")
I want to fuck you like an animal I want to feel you from the inside I want to fuck you like an animal My whole existence is flawed You get me closer to god [slight hijack] This was the first dance at my wedding. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/28 "2005-01-04T19:20:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Well, what else would you call “A Day in the Life” if not pop? It’s not rock. It’s not jazz, it’s not blues, it’s not folk. Just calling it a “song” seens kind of vague to me. > > “Pop” is nothing more than an abbreviation of “popular music”. The Beatles sang pop songs, alongside a plethora of other styles. Paul Simon sings pop and folk. Frank Sinatra sang pop songs, too - much of what we know as “Americana” are nothing more than very good pop tunes that have been around for a long time. > > The idea that pop means a three-minute ditty with a catchy hook comes from disgruntled rockers who don’t thing the music on the radio is loud enough. Fact of the matter is, pop is no better or worse than any other music style; for every bad pop song, I can bring you a crappy piece of rock-n-roll. > > As to Billy Joel, the examples you bring hint that you only know the stuff that plays on the radio. Joel is a grwat songwriter and a decent singer, but he has a nasty habit of releasing his dumbest, most shallow songs as dingles, while leaving his better stuff on the albums. I made a compelation disk of his best songs some time ago, and I doubt you’d recognize half of them. While yes, “pop” is an abbreviation for “popular” it does have a specific connotation in the music biz. I agree with your characterizations of Simon and Sinatra - they did sing pop tunes with a folk (Simon) or swing (Sinatra) sensibility. I would call A Day in the Life psychedelic rock or concept rock - especially since it was part of Sgt. Pepper’s, the album that is generally considered to have framed the total album as the artistic statement over individual songs. I didn’t need the reference to disgruntled rockers - bad form. Pop is its own form and it does have it’s own definition: From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Depending on context, pop music is either an abbreviation of popular music or, more recently, a term for a sub-genre of it. > > The subgenre of pop is perhaps the most widely crowd-pleasing form of all popular music. Some of the defining musical characteristics of the subgenre are the presence of a hook, and production techniques which are somewhat reliant on the musical fashions of the time. You get the idea. And also - yes, I have heard a ton of Billy’s stuff - his albums were around my house for years up through River of Dreams. My opinion still stands. Wonderful piano player, strong singer. Decent songwriter, but not great - needs to lay off the dime-store psychology… ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/29 "2005-01-04T20:18:33Z")
> [@Caricci](#): > > This was the first dance at my wedding. Yeah, that’s cool. I always liked the radio version myself: “I want toof ’ kyou like an animal” Come on, who didn’t know what was going on there? –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934/30 "2005-01-05T13:49:26Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Yeah, that’s cool. > > I always liked the radio version myself: “I want toof ’ kyou like an animal” Come on, who didn’t know what was going on there? > > –Cliffy Well, I always thought the lyrics were a metaphor for something crasser and cruder, like used car sales or multi-level marketing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-billy-joel-ever-write-a-good-refrain/282934.md?page=1)