# Did C.S. Lewis pre-plan Narnia's History? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327 "2003-02-15T23:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/41 "2003-02-19T19:55:27Z")
Has anyone read _The Tower of Geburah_ by David White? Fun book, despite being a TOTAL Narnia clone, with Xtian imagery even more overt. At least Lewis didn’t beat you over the head with it. I don’t mind the Xtian imagery in Narnia; after all, Christianity itself is just fiction anyway. 🙂 It would be a travesty if they excised all the Xtian stuff from the movie versions or reprinted books. It would be like removing all the elven songs and poetry from the movie version of **Lord of the Rings**. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![CadburyAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@CadburyAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CadburyAngel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/42 "2003-02-19T20:36:51Z")
I started out Catholic and ended up pagan, so you can probably deduce that there were points in my life when I was not Christianity’s biggest cheerleader. But I never took offense at the Narnia books. I didn’t even really grasp all the parallels until I reread The Last Battle a few years back. I suppose some people would be offended that the Christianity sneaks in under the radar, but like Athena said, it’s not the negative aspects of Christianity for the most part. The only unpleasant implication is that Muslims worship falsely, but if you delete the physical descriptions of the worshippers of that weird bird thingy, you’re left with a message about the dangers of overzealous worship and cultism. Now that I’ve got a better education in the classics, I think I’d like to reread all of the books. Thanks, dopers! ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/43 "2003-02-19T21:35:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BioHazard \* > \*\*I vote for the original order, most definatly. > > I first read the series in first grade at a Christian school, in the original order, and absolutly loved it. BTW, I got in trouble at that school because they said I was to young to read and understand those books, and when I mentioned that I had already read and understood satans book, The Hobbit, I got in even more trouble :rolleyes: And yes, even at that young age I got all the christian subthemes. \*\* That’s pretty small-minded. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/44 "2003-02-19T22:01:02Z")
Not only will I say that Narnia is best in the original order, I’ll say that _any_ series is best in the original order. When the author wrote the later books, he did so with the understanding that the reader had read the previous books. And all I get from that quote by Lewis is that he’s acknowldedging that the currently-published order is, indeed, the internal chronological order. But “Lewis says that _Magician’s Nephew_ is first in Narnian chronology, and many scholars think that it should be the first read” is a far cry from “Lewis thinks that it should be the first read”. And for the record, my sister and I picked up on the Christian imagery at about age 4, and I honestly don’t see how one could miss the basic structures of it. There are plenty of subtleties to it, though, that I’m only now picking up on. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/45 "2003-02-19T22:38:53Z")
Other than the Christic imagery in LW&W, which was pointed out to me when I saw the animated version (my first encounter w/ Lewis) I didn’t see a lot of allegory in the Narnia stories. What you get is this strong infusion of Lewis’s philosophy (definitely not fundamentalist or even terribly orthodox Xtianity) in these various adventure stories. The only one I hate is _The Last Battle_. Looking back at it, he handled some ideas in it well, but I objected to his ending the world on principle. The Christian idea of the Apocalypse offended me as a child, & may be the real main reason I’m not a Christian today. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/46 "2003-02-19T22:46:16Z")
I managed to miss all the Christian stuff until high school. I’ve gone to church my whole life, and my mom is a Lewis fanatic, but I still missed it. (My college bf, who is Jewish, caught it at age 11 or something.) So I’m really clueless. With my own copies, I always put them on the shelf in the chronological order, but would only read them to my kids or recommend them in the original order. (My copies were never numbered, though.) ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/47 "2003-02-19T23:09:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Athena \* > \*\*From what I can see, the books include a lot of the very, very good things about Christianity (and there ARE a lot of good things about it) and very little (if any) of the bad (ie, hatred of homosexuals, pushing one’s own belief system over all others, etc.) \*\* As a former Xian, I’m not going to let this little comment slide. (1) Maybe 0.01% of Xians “hate” homosexuals and are vocal about it. The rest are pretty much silent on the issue, so they get colored by the vocal minority. There are more Catholics in the world than all other Xians combined and they certainly don’t hate homosexuals. Look how many gay priests there are. (2) How is pushing one’s own belief system over others one of the bad things? It’s called a belief in **objective reality**. Since Xians believe that I am going to hell for eternity - for real, not just because it is their _opinion_ - I fault them for not pushing their beliefs on me strongly enough. Of what importance is a 20-year career compared to all your neighbors spending eternity in the pit? They should all be out evangelizing, the hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/48 "2003-02-20T16:59:52Z")
What do you mean there’s Christian imagery? They worship a lion! Idolaters! They will burn, all of them! At any rate, I give mad props to any religious author who includes atheists in their vision of Armageddon. ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/49 "2003-02-21T00:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > …It’s called a belief in objective reality… [off-topic mini-rant] Well said, TGWATY. _Why_ is this such a hard concept for so many non-religious folks to grasp? [/rant] ---
**Author:** ![SnugTheJoiner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@SnugTheJoiner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnugTheJoiner)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/50 "2003-02-21T01:15:17Z")
Original (i.e. published) order. Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/51 "2003-02-21T16:36:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > **I give mad props …** mad props? ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/52 "2003-02-21T17:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Athena_ > I despise Bible-thumping, small minded hypocritical Christians as much as the next Doper, but I don’t think it’s fair to lump C. S. Lewis in with that batch of people. I think it is. I lost a lot of respect for C. S. Lewis when I first read his idiotic ‘Liar, Madman or Son of God’ “proof” of Christianity. He is far from the league of a Jack Chick, but his beliefs were definitely leaning to the embarassing end of Christianity. Despite this, I still like the Narnia books, and the Christian allegory made them fun to read as an adult. It also explained why I never liked the ending of The Last Battle, even as a child. It seemed so cruel and arbitrary. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by TGWATY_ > mad props? Um… mad=good, props=praise, acknowledgement, respect. in this case, “mad” is only strengthening the props, so **robertliguori** is strongly expressing respectful admiration and praise for an author that does as he descibes. ---
**Author:** ![SteverinoAlaReno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@SteverinoAlaReno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteverinoAlaReno)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/53 "2003-02-21T22:41:03Z")
When did the ordering change? I first read the books in 1975, when I was in high school, and the ordering was by publication date (aka “original order”). I bought hardback copies of the books around 1984, and they were also in the original order. But I did notice about 5 years ago that sets were being sold with the new order, and I greatly prefer the original. My favorite of the series: _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_, especially the part where Lucy reads the book of magic. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/54 "2003-02-22T00:08:55Z")
The original hardcover and paperback UK editions (1950-56) and the subsequent American editions were all numbered with the “original order” (order of publication). The American order stayed that way until 1994, when Harper Collins released the “chronological order” set. However, prior to 1994, there was at least one UK paperback edition that used the chronological numbering. I’m sorry I don’t have dates for these, but as my book club discovered a while back, it was long enough ago that people who are adults now and read the series as children in the UK grew up with the chronological order. FWIW, (based on my highly scientific study of my book club members) people who grew up with the chron order preferred the chron order, and people who grew up with the original order preferred that one. ---
**Author:** ![CadburyAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@CadburyAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CadburyAngel)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/55 "2003-02-22T03:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SteverinoAlaReno \* > \*\* > My favorite of the series: _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_, especially the part where Lucy reads the book of magic. \*\* The part where she was walking down the hallway and thought she saw a face staring at her always creeped the hell out of me. I was jumpy for hours afterward. (I know, Favorite Narnia Moments is a hijack, but we already hijacked from “Pre-planning Narnia’s History” to “Christianity in the Chronicles” to “Christianity in General,” so I’m going to leave it.) ---
**Author:** ![CadburyAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@CadburyAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CadburyAngel)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327/56 "2003-02-22T04:05:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SteverinoAlaReno \* > \*\* > My favorite of the series: _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_, especially the part where Lucy reads the book of magic. \*\* The part where she was walking down the hallway and thought she saw a face staring at her always creeped the hell out of me. I was jumpy for hours afterward. (I know, Favorite Narnia Moments is a hijack, but we already hijacked from “Pre-planning Narnia’s History” to “Christianity in the Chronicles” to “Christianity in General,” so I’m going to leave it.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-c-s-lewis-pre-plan-narnias-history/155327.md?page=2)