# Did Carthage need to be destroyed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543 "2010-01-26T18:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/1 "2010-01-26T18:46:05Z")
Sorry, last ancient world post to GD for a while, I promise. Cato insisted, in every speech before the Senate, that the destruction of Carthage was imperative. And, indeed, Rome did destroy Carthage. What if it hadn’t? Following the first two Punic Wars, did Carthage pose any serious threat to Rome? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/2 "2010-01-26T18:58:02Z")
After three wars I can see Romes patience wearing thin. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/3 "2010-01-26T19:00:04Z")
Yes, it did. Not for any modern reasons that we’d associate with national warfare, like security or sovereignty or what have you. It was necessary because Rome was a voracious predator and in huge part its culture was ‘built’ at the Campus Martius. Carthage didn’t have to be annihilated because it was an existential threat to Rome, but because it stood in the way of Roman dominance and they preferred to speak, and more importantly to think, in terms of their Empire. That’s why the sea became known as the Mare Nostrum. Carthage had to die because it was in the way. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/4 "2010-01-26T19:09:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, it did. Not for any modern reasons that we’d associate with national warfare, like security or sovereignty or what have you. It was necessary because Rome was a voracious predator and in huge part its culture was ‘built’ at the Campus Martius. > > Carthage didn’t have to be annihilated because it was an existential threat to Rome, but because it stood in the way of Roman dominance and they preferred to speak, and more importantly to think, in terms of their Empire. That’s why the sea became known as the Mare Nostrum. Carthage had to die because it was in the way. Also, wasn’t it destroyed to serve as an example to other potential challengers of Rome? Basically, they were saying, “Before you think of taking us on, remember what happened to Carthage.” Incidentally, the Romans later rebuilt Carthage and it was a major city until it was conquered and destroyed by the Arabs in 698 AD. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/5 "2010-01-26T19:36:43Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Also, wasn’t it destroyed to serve as an example to other potential challengers of Rome? Basically, they were saying, “Before you think of taking us on, remember what happened to Carthage.” - "Remember Carthage ? - Um.. no ? - _Exactly_." 🙂 \*\*Finn \*\*has the general principle right. One could add that, on top of its martial culture, the Roman Empire was also heavily reliant on slave labor. The problem is that once a piece of land has been conquered, it becomes a part of the Empire, and its citizen become Ethno-Romans. Which is, you know, the point. Trouble is, it then becomes much harder to take the locals as prisonners and slaves should they opt not to revolt every 5 bloody minutes. Thus, by its nature, Rome \*needed \*to be in a quasi-constant state of expansion and warfare, or the whole system would have tumbled down. A constant state of expansion is annoying in that you have more and more ground to defend, so need more and more armed forces abroad, thus need more and more slaves and loot flowing back home to finance the armed forces and keep domestic shit running while every able-bodied citizen is in the army abroad, thus require more and more expansion… you see where this is going, don’t you ? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/6 "2010-01-26T19:39:39Z")
After it was destroyed by the Arabs, they built its neighbor, Tunis into the major city that Carthage had used to be. And, from a strictly militarily purpose, Carthage was no threat to Rome at all by the time of the Third Punic War. Basically, at the end of the Second Punic War, Rome and Carthage had signed a peace treaty in which Carthage promised to pay a huge indemnity and not take aggressive action without Roman permission. So, in the years after that, the Numidians, who were Roman allies, kept attacking them. And things would follow a pretty clear pattern. The Numidians would seize a border town, Carthage would go to Rome, and ask, “Can we defend ourselves?”, the Romans would say, “No”, and the Carthaginians would do nothing. And that repeated itself over 50 years. So, at the end of the 50 years, Carthage finally paid off its indemnity. And then Numidia attacked another border town. Carthage, figuring that the indemnity was paid off, and they could finally defend themselves, raised an army to take it back (and was horribly defeated, btw). The Romans got upset, because, according to them, the whole “Carthage has to get permission to defend itself” clause was eternal, and not just over the course of the indemnities, and Carthage was attacking a Roman ally and so on. So, they sent a message to Carthage saying, “You’re on thin ice, and we’re going to invade you unless you keep us happy.”. So, Rome sent a demand to Carthage that a bunch of Carthaginian noble kids be sent to Rome as hostages. Carthage agreed and sent the hostages. Then, they sent the demand that Carthage surrender all their weapons. Carthage agreed and surrendered the weapons. Then Rome demanded that Carthage be evacuated and the city burned. The Carthaginians didn’t agree, so Rome besieged the city. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/7 "2010-01-26T20:58:03Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Incidentally, the Romans later rebuilt Carthage And I helped! Okay, in Caesar III. Tough level! ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/8 "2010-01-26T20:59:04Z")
Only because Cato said so. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/9 "2010-01-26T23:25:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Did Carthage need to be destroyed? Not from the point of view of Carthage. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/10 "2010-01-27T01:11:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > - "Remember Carthage ? > - Um.. no ? > - _Exactly_." You win. I wonder how that would sound in Latin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/11 "2010-01-27T04:05:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > - "Remember Carthage ? > - Um.. no ? > - _Exactly_." > > 🙂 > > \*\*Finn \*\*has the general principle right. One could add that, on top of its martial culture, the Roman Empire was also heavily reliant on slave labor. The problem is that once a piece of land has been conquered, it becomes a part of the Empire, and its citizen become Ethno-Romans. Which is, you know, the point. > > Trouble is, it then becomes much harder to take the locals as prisonners and slaves should they opt not to revolt every 5 bloody minutes. Thus, by its nature, Rome \*needed \*to be in a quasi-constant state of expansion and warfare, or the whole system would have tumbled down. A constant state of expansion is annoying in that you have more and more ground to defend, so need more and more armed forces abroad, thus need more and more slaves and loot flowing back home to finance the armed forces and keep domestic shit running while every able-bodied citizen is in the army abroad, thus require more and more expansion… you see where this is going, don’t you ? 😛 But Augustus, after losing Germany to Arminius’ rebellion, largely put an end to imperial expansion; and yet the empire, within Augustus’ borders, managed to survive for another five centuries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/12 "2010-01-27T04:06:22Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You win. > > I wonder how that would sound in Latin. I think it would translate roughly to, [_“Vae victis.”_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vae_victis) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/13 "2010-01-27T04:27:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > - "Remember Carthage ? > - Um.. no ? > - _Exactly_." > > 🙂 > > \*\*Finn \*\*has the general principle right. One could add that, on top of its martial culture, the Roman Empire was also heavily reliant on slave labor. The problem is that once a piece of land has been conquered, it becomes a part of the Empire, and its citizen become Ethno-Romans. Which is, you know, the point. > > Trouble is, it then becomes much harder to take the locals as prisonners and slaves should they opt not to revolt every 5 bloody minutes. Thus, by its nature, Rome \*needed \*to be in a quasi-constant state of expansion and warfare, or the whole system would have tumbled down. A constant state of expansion is annoying in that you have more and more ground to defend, so need more and more armed forces abroad, thus need more and more slaves and loot flowing back home to finance the armed forces and keep domestic shit running while every able-bodied citizen is in the army abroad, thus require more and more expansion… you see where this is going, don’t you ? 😛 We should join Amway? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/14 "2010-01-27T06:04:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think it would translate roughly to, [_“Vae victis.”_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vae_victis) Sorry for the lack of clarity, I meant the previous dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/15 "2010-01-27T06:09:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Basically, at the end of the Second Punic War, Rome and Carthage had signed a peace treaty in which Carthage promised to pay a huge indemnity and not take aggressive action without Roman permission. So, in the years after that, the Numidians, who were Roman allies, kept attacking them. And things would follow a pretty clear pattern. The Numidians would seize a border town, Carthage would go to Rome, and ask, “Can we defend ourselves?”, the Romans would say, “No”, and the Carthaginians would do nothing. And that repeated itself over 50 years. > > So, at the end of the 50 years, Carthage finally paid off its indemnity. And then Numidia attacked another border town. Carthage, figuring that the indemnity was paid off, and they could finally defend themselves, raised an army to take it back (and was horribly defeated, btw). > > The Romans got upset, because, according to them, the whole “Carthage has to get permission to defend itself” clause was eternal, and not just over the course of the indemnities, and Carthage was attacking a Roman ally and so on. So, they sent a message to Carthage saying, “You’re on thin ice, and we’re going to invade you unless you keep us happy.”. > > So, Rome sent a demand to Carthage that a bunch of Carthaginian noble kids be sent to Rome as hostages. Carthage agreed and sent the hostages. Then, they sent the demand that Carthage surrender all their weapons. Carthage agreed and surrendered the weapons. Then Rome demanded that Carthage be evacuated and the city burned. The Carthaginians didn’t agree, so Rome besieged the city. It’s worth noting that the Romans did this to _everybody_. That way, no one could accuse them of starting wars. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/16 "2010-01-27T06:36:19Z")
Well, they did sacrifice babies (supposedly). On the other hand, in the Ancient World, who\* didn’t\*? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/17 "2010-01-27T14:38:24Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Sorry for the lack of clarity, I meant the previous dialogue. So did I. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/18 "2010-01-27T16:51:01Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > It’s worth noting that the Romans did this to _everybody_. That way, no one could accuse them of starting wars. 😉 Sort of the ancient Mediterranean version of “Stop hitting yourself! Why are you hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/19 "2010-01-27T17:50:32Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Sort of the ancient Mediterranean version of “Stop hitting yourself! Why are you hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!” More the ancient Mediterranean version of, “Baby, why do you make me hit you?” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/20 "2010-02-04T02:49:50Z")
Yes. Of those two great Mediterranean powers Rome was far better. The Roman Republic was a decent nation while Carthage was a superstitious plutocracy. I salute Cato the Elder when he said “Carthago Delandea Est.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543.md?page=2)