# Did Carthage need to be destroyed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543 "2010-01-26T18:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/21 "2010-02-04T02:54:29Z")
Well, according to the Cato Institute… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/22 "2010-02-04T03:12:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yes. Of those two great Mediterranean powers Rome was far better. The Roman Republic was a decent nation while Carthage was a superstitious plutocracy. I salute Cato the Elder when he said “Carthago Delandea Est.” Ahhh but if Rome had lost, Cato would have been hung as a war criminal 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/23 "2010-02-04T03:18:53Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Ahhh but if Rome had lost, Cato would have been hung as a war criminal 🙂 Now _that_, my friends, is why I love the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/24 "2010-02-04T03:27:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yes. Of those two great Mediterranean powers Rome was far better. The Roman Republic was a decent nation while Carthage was a superstitious plutocracy. I salute Cato the Elder when he said “Carthago Delandea Est.” :dubious: Rome was better than Carthage only in the sense that syphilis is better than AIDS. Both were superstitious, both were plutocratic, both conquered and enslaved whole populations, both practiced horrific punishments such as crucifixion. The Carthaginians had their child sacrifice, the Romans had their gladiatorial games. Rome was somewhat more advanced in law and political institutions – so far as we know, that is, based on histories written by Romans. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/25 "2010-02-04T03:38:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Rome was better than Carthage only in the sense that syphilis is better than AIDS. Both were superstitious, both were plutocratic, both conquered and enslaved whole populations, both practiced horrific punishments such as crucifixion. The Carthaginians had their child sacrifice, the Romans had their gladiatorial games. Rome was somewhat more advanced in law and political institutions – so far as we know, that is, based on histories written by Romans. According to the records Rome had far more republican institutions than that of Carthage. A Carthagenean triumph may well have meant the triumph of Oriental Despotism. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/26 "2010-02-04T03:43:24Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > the triumph of Oriental Despotism. With capital letters and everything? I fail to see how, in practical terms, Oriental Despotism was any much worse than Italian Despotism. Did the trains run on time under the latter but not the former? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/27 "2010-02-04T03:52:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > According to the records Rome had far more republican institutions than that of Carthage. A Carthagenean triumph may well have meant the triumph of Oriental Despotism. Those happen to be Roman records. I’m sure Carthaginian historians would have had unkind things to say about Rome and its history. Besides, according to the records Rome ended up an autocratic and corrupt empire that deified its rulers. So, hum… I guess at least the despotism wasn’t Oriental ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/28 "2010-02-04T03:53:54Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > With capital letters and everything? > > I fail to see how, in practical terms, Oriental Despotism was any much worse than Italian Despotism. Did the trains run on time under the latter but not the former? Rome had republican institutions such as the Senate, the Consul, the Tribune, and so on which kept the government in check and even later on the Emperors (until the rise of Oriental Despotism in the Empire with acession of Septimius Severus) were checked by the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/29 "2010-02-04T04:32:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > According to the records Rome had far more republican institutions than that of Carthage. A Carthagenean triumph may well have meant the triumph of Oriental Despotism. Carthage was a republic led by two annually elected magistrates called suffetes and an assembly of rich citizens called the Hundred – much like Rome with its consuls and Senate – and that’s what we know from **Roman** histories; if the Carthaginians wrote any accounts of themselves, they have not survived. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/30 "2010-02-04T04:51:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > With capital letters and everything? > > I fail to see how, in practical terms, Oriental Despotism was any much worse than Italian Despotism. Did the trains run on time under the latter but not the former? [Oriental despotism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_despotism) Whether you use Aristotle’s definition or Marx’, it would not appear to apply to Carthage – or, at least, would not distinguish Carthage from Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/31 "2010-02-04T05:03:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > A Carthagenean triumph may well have meant the triumph of Oriental Despotism. Holy crap, I don’t think I’ve seen a non-ironic reference to “Oriental Despotism” since reading Gibbon. Was Carthage also a hotbed of Effeminate Luxury? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/32 "2010-02-04T05:23:12Z")
Threads like this are why I maintain my membership. However, as an amateur responding to the OP … Rome? FUCK YEAH! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/33 "2010-02-04T06:05:24Z")
Don’t SDSAB’s get free membership? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/34 "2010-02-04T06:51:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Carthage was a republic led by two annually elected magistrates called suffetes and an assembly of rich citizens called the Hundred – The Hundred and Four, which could appoint and dismiss generals and controlled the Carthaginian military. In addition to the Suffets, and the Hundred and Four, they also had a Senate, which had to approve the actions of the Suffets, and a popular assembly that made decisions when the Suffets and Senate disagreed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/35 "2010-02-04T07:28:26Z")
BTW, anybody interested in this thread should check out the alternate-history novels _Hannibal’s Children_ and _The Seven Hills,_ by John Maddox Roberts (see [here](http://www.uchronia.net/bib.cgi/label.html?id=robehannib)): Hannibal wins the Second Punic War and forces the Romans to abandon their city and go into national exile over the Alps to Noricum (Austria). There, they found a new city, Roma Noricum, and develop a culture even more martial than that of the Roman Republic in our timeline, and conquer and Romanize the local Germans and Celts. A century later, the Romans fulfill their national vow to return to Italy and reclaim Rome of the Seven Hills. This gives the author an absolutely delicious chance to portray the Carthage of that time as an imperial city as rich and decadent and Oriental-despotic as anything out of Robert E. Howard’s Hyborian Age. Also to contrast Carthaginian corruption with Roman military-republican virtue, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/36 "2010-02-04T11:18:54Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yes. Of those two great Mediterranean powers Rome was far better. The Roman Republic was a decent nation while Carthage was a superstitious plutocracy. I salute Cato the Elder when he said “Carthago Delandea Est.” :dubious: Rome was also a superstitious plutocracy … they had gods for everything, borrowed gods from every cultural group they came across and conquored, and consulted various forms of divination before during and after pretty much every official act… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/37 "2010-02-04T12:58:54Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You win. > > I wonder how that would sound in Latin. “The people called Carthage, they are remembered”?? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/38 "2010-02-04T15:24:00Z")
Rome had better engineers. Go aqueducts and sewers. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/39 "2010-02-04T15:43:00Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Rome had better engineers. Go aqueducts and sewers. Sure, but apart from the aqueducts, sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543/40 "2010-02-04T18:26:09Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Sure, but apart from the aqueducts, sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? brought peace? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-carthage-need-to-be-destroyed/526543.md?page=3)