# Did civilians go out and watch the aerial battles over WW2 Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218 "2006-02-13T04:07:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/41 "2006-02-14T11:45:21Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > All true, but my mother has a slightly different perspective. Morale in England was high, and the failure of invasion threats raised it higher still. There was a real and widespread sense of “We’ll show the Hun what the English are made of.” To the extent that the bombing was intended to undermine resolve for victory, it was an abject failure. > > When the bases were finally overrun and the threat of all bombing had ended there was a strong sense of relief - and just a touch of wistful regret that their time on the stage, during which they knew they’d conducted themselves honorably in difficult circumstances, was now at an end. I agree that there was an incredible wartime spirit and determination ‘to see it through’. You could argue that this was the main achievement of the Dambusters raid. Nevertheless, it was still advisable to get off the street during bombing. Didn’t the Queen remark, when Buckingham Palace got bombed “Now I can look the East End in the face”? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/42 "2006-02-14T13:33:09Z")
Just to add an anecdote, my grandfather was working on Greenwich power station at the beginning of the blitz, and living on Shooters Hill. When the Luftwaffe hit the docks for the first time my granny dragged him out into Greenwich Park to watch the whole of the Thames and Docklands in flames, saying something like “Don’t be daft Jimmy. We’ll never get to see anything like this again in our lives”. It was apparently pretty spectacular. On the other hand my grandfather came home one evening covered in blood because he’d been walking down an external stair on the power station and a bomb had hit the roof, killed an Observer Corps chap stationed there and blown the corpse off the roof to land on grandpa’s neck. :eek: Not so nice for him and it also freaked out granny pretty well when she opened the door. ---
**Author:** ![Vormek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c89c15/32.png) [@Vormek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vormek)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/43 "2006-02-14T14:08:56Z")
Someone at the II forum mentioned that David Simmons was on a bomber crew in ww2. A few questions: Which theatre were you in? On a bombing mission, how far from your target did you meet with flak/fighters? Was it a long boring flight until you got near the target or were fighters coming at you as soon as you crossed the channel? (assuming you were in Europe). Were you a pilot, gunner, bombadier? What part of the war were you flying? I would imagine it was quite a different experience in say '43 when all Europe was occupied and the Luftwaffe was still formidable than in late '44 or '45. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/44 "2006-02-14T15:12:10Z")
Another anecdote: I went to college with a Scot (a bit older than the rest of us) who was always pretty negative toward Germans (an attitude that seemed mildly idiosyncratic to our generation, born after WWII). He once explained that it traced partially back to his youth, watching fighters overhead and having cartridge cases falling around him. He never elaborated, so I do not know whether he happened to be caught outside during a single daylight raid or whether there was an ongoing situation. (I guess he’d have been 3 - 5 during 1940.) ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/45 "2006-02-14T17:03:44Z")
In David McCollough’s 1776, there are a number of references to civilians from the hills and dales and mountains around pulling up chairs to watch the battles wage. Apparently, depending upon your particular bent, it was a pretty good form of entertainment. Given the nature of the type of war that was being waged in those days, at times the location of a battle was pretty well known ahead of time, and people from miles around would gather to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/46 "2006-02-14T17:14:24Z")
I remember seeing a painting a few years ago depicting farm workers in a field with a dog-fight going on overhead. From memory it shows a man on a tractor and a couple of others bailing hay or straw. The sky is full of con-trails and aircraft. I have searched the web for this image, but with no luck. Does anyone else recall seeing this picture? I also think it was painted just after the event and not years afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/47 "2006-02-14T17:16:42Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > The interceptors were actually doing rather better than 1-in-a-1000. > > Cumulative numbers quoted by Ordway and Sharpe over the campaign between 13/6/44 and 1/9/44 are that, of those that reached the English coast, 3765 were destroyed by different means, compared to the 2340 that actually made it through successfully. (The British estimates for those others that fell harmlessly into the Channel of their own accord were necessarily vague, but that was actually probably the fate of most launches.) Of those 3765 destroyed, 1912 were downed by aircraft, 1575 by AA fire and 278 by barrage balloons. Granted that 1912 figure isn’t then broken down by tactic and so will also include cases where the intercepting plane shot them down as well as those that were deflected into crashing, but it does indicate that fighters were able to successfully intercept incoming V1s for long enough to stand a good chance of destroying them despite their speed. > These cumulative figures however hide some significant changing patterns. Basically, the fighters started off being about twice as effective as the AA guns, but there were several major improvements in the way the latter were used as the summer wore on. The Germans were also unhappy with the effectiveness of the British defences and so switched to launching at night, which put the interceptors at a particularly severe disadvantage. During the brief final series of attacks in March 1945 the relative success rates were thus very different: then AA fire got 86, fighters got only 4 and 13 got through to London. Oh sure, many of the V-1’s were destroyed but how many of them that were destroyed by fighters were diverted by flying close and disturbing their flight as compared with being shot down by the fighters? I just seems to me that if you are above the V-1 and can dive to gain speed then as you pull in to tilt its wing it would be just as easy to take a shot at it. Or if you get in front and let it go by then just after it goes by shoot it. You are pretty close at least for a little while and ought to have a better chance of shooting it as opposed to getting close enough to tip the wing. Of course if it is close, and you shoot and hit, it might blow up in your face which can be a little disconcerting. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/48 "2006-02-14T17:26:06Z")
With the invention of the proximity fuse the chances of anti-aircraft guns destroying V1s was much better. With this device the shell did not actually have to be in contact with the flying bomb , it just had to be near it to detonate. Details [here](http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12416944.400.html) ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/49 "2006-02-14T17:40:54Z")
I believe that Ed Morrow made several broadcasts from London rooftops during the blitz, describing the action as it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/50 "2006-02-14T17:47:42Z")
Most large buildings in London had fire-watchers stationed on the roof. Their job was to look out for incendiary bombs landing on the building. They were equipped with sand, a shovel, water and a small water pump to extinguish the fires before they took hold. One such fire-watcher is credited with saving St Paul’s Cathedral by disposing of a fire-bomb lodged on the lead covered roof. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/51 "2006-02-14T19:06:44Z")
Alas, I cannot verify my former colleague’s tale about the V1 and the fighter - without the intervention of either a medium or a Oiuja board, that is - as poor old Jim snuffed it ages ago. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/52 "2006-02-14T20:37:51Z")
> [@Rayne Man](#): > > With the invention of the proximity fuse the chances of anti-aircraft guns destroying V1s was much better. With this device the shell did not actually have to be in contact with the flying bomb , it just had to be near it to detonate. Details [here](http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12416944.400.html) Actually a shell with a proximity fuze had to be just as close as one with a time fuze in order to do damage. The thing that the proximity shell did was greatly increase the number of explosions that were at precisely the right altitude. With all the variable involved it is incredibly difficult to know the time of flight of the shell that will give you detonation at the right altitude. So the explosions took place in a three dimensional box that enclosed the target. With the proximity fuze shell that box approached a plane, the flat surfaceand not an airplane, because every explosion was the result of passing near a target. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/53 "2006-02-15T04:33:32Z")
> [@Vormek](#): > > Someone at the II forum mentioned that David Simmons was on a bomber crew in ww2. A few questions: Which theatre were you in? On a bombing mission, how far from your target did you meet with flak/fighters? Was it a long boring flight until you got near the target or were fighters coming at you as soon as you crossed the channel? (assuming you were in Europe). Were you a pilot, gunner, bombadier? What part of the war were you flying? I would imagine it was quite a different experience in say '43 when all Europe was occupied and the Luftwaffe was still formidable than in late '44 or '45. You will find my answers[in this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=358938) I hope they fill the bill for you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/54 "2006-02-15T05:04:57Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > More likely a Gloster Meteor jet. According to[this site](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWv1.htm) the V-1 traveled at about 350 mph. I doubt that any of our piston engined fighters could maneuver into position and maintain that speed in level flight long enough to nudge the V-1 wings. As pointed out, some fighters could do this, and in fact my paternal grandfather knocked down a V-1 doing this in his Tempest V. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/55 "2006-02-15T05:15:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As pointed out, some fighters could do this, and in fact my paternal grandfather knocked down a V-1 doing this in his Tempest V. Yup, I didn’t take into account some of the propellor driven fighters whose design was a result of wartime experience. Those like the Tempest would not be so far out of their normal operating envelope at 350 mph so as to have serious control difficulty. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/56 "2006-02-15T09:27:27Z")
I can’t get back home for a bit to dig out the book and scan the image (which probably would be forbidden anyway) but I have a book on WWII RAF fighters which included a rather grainy photo of a fighter wing tip to wing tip with a V-1 in an attempt to flip it over. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/57 "2006-02-15T10:59:07Z")
A couple of random google results: > [@](#): > > Spitfire Mk9s, Mk 12s and Mk14s were used but the only plane capable of dealing with this threat was the Tempest 5. It was the only plane that could keep up with a V1 in level flight. Spitfires armour and some of the guns were removed, as well as highly polishing the surfaces in an effort to counteract the V1. One favoured technique was to get wing tip to wing tip and flip the V1 over, toppling its gyro and sending it plummeting to earth. [http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/spitfire.html](http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/spitfire.html) > [@](#): > > When in service (August 1944), the RAF Meteor squadrons were mostly used to counter the threat from the 7,000 V1 flying bombs aimed at this country. The Meteors (achieving a top speed of 480 m.p.h.) were fast enough to fly alongside the V1s and to ‘knock’ them out of the sky by using the Meteor’s wing tip to flip them on their backs. [http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~bcb/whittle/whitt-r.htm](http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~bcb/whittle/whitt-r.htm) No idea about the reliability of these cites, but it seems there were _some_ planes capable of catching a V1 in level flight. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/58 "2006-02-15T12:17:32Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I can’t get back home for a bit to dig out the book and scan the image (which probably would be forbidden anyway) but I have a book on WWII RAF fighters which included a rather grainy photo of a fighter wing tip to wing tip with a V-1 in an attempt to flip it over. [The photo is more or less on the middle of this page.](http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/line1944.html) I´ve read somewhere that the tactic was not to actually touch the bomb with the wingtip, but to use the wingtip vortex to throw it out of control… I guess the mainteinance crews would have approved that! ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/59 "2006-02-15T14:25:31Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > [The photo is more or less on the middle of this page.](http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/line1944.html) I think that’s actually the one from my book. As an aside, I’ve seen the film [this picture](http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/t_images/typhoonrockets.jpg) from your link was taken from several times on the history channels here in the UK. Its a marvellous display of accuracy, pairs of rockets flying off to tear holes in a lenght of railway track. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218/60 "2006-02-15T16:14:10Z")
During WWll, mom lived in Kent, England, part of “bomb alley” – so called because it lay on the Luftwaffe route from France to London. The Germans turned their attention to English civilians for about nine months during the Blitz. When the wailing air-raid sirens blasted, as they did often, most civilians scrambled to find shelter and extinguish all lights (most were nighttime raids) instead of looking up to enjoy the show. Incendiary bomb conflagrations lit up the horizon. Mom, along with her mother and their dog, Buddy, were bombed out of three houses. On two of the occasions, they were in the house at the time. Buddy was crushed and killed and mom suffered a serious concussion in the last bombing. The remaining two would surely have been killed when a forth bombing nearly took place - a large bomb fell directly on their roof, but proved to be a dud (we still have the bomb casing, rendered harmless by the US Army). As bad as the Luftwaffe bombings were, it was the V-1 Flying bomb (doodlebugs) and the V-2 rockets (carrying 2,000lbs of explosives) that really caused acid indigestion for the English. Each had very distinct sounds and horrible sounds. Mom recounts how they would hear the “Buzzbombs” approach and prey that the engine sound did not cut out above them, because that meant the explosive would fall directly on them. When morning came they would go out and tally the damage and count how many of their neighbors were killed. On one occasion, their neighbor two houses down (he was their mail-man) was blown into the next block…and the block after that. Interestingly, and remarkably, many of the civilians in this hellish scenario would sing, dance and joke even while under deadly attack. I think that speaks volumes for human determination, or at least English pluckiness. Dad (US Army Air force), swept mom off her feet at the tail end of WWII and they married in Orpington before moving to the States. Mom’s favorite wedding gift: her brother was able to attend the wedding, after having been freed from a German POW camp two-days prior. He was a sight for sore eyes, despite being 50lbs underweight and prematurely white haired. 60 years later, mom still shuts her eyes and covers her ears during thunderstorms, because they remind her of the Blitzkrieg. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-civilians-go-out-and-watch-the-aerial-battles-over-ww2-europe/344218.md?page=4)