# Did Clinton REALLY sell/give nuclear/missle secrets to China/North Korea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211 "2004-01-07T14:49:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![El\_Mariachi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@El\_Mariachi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Mariachi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/1 "2004-01-07T14:49:33Z")
I see conservatives complain about this all the time, yet I’ve never seen an article about it… its like they’re getting this information from talk show hosts or something. I would assume if Clinton actually did such treachorous acts the conservatives would impeach him for that instead of who he slept with. I tried searching a bit and really couldn’t find much. So either I’m an idiot and don’t know how to use a search function (very possible), or Clinton never did any such thing. Can you help me? If you have links to articles listing either way, it would be helpful. I want to either dispel this myth once and for all, or suck it up and move on. edit: sell or give in title. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/2 "2004-01-07T15:03:22Z")
The only solid evidence I see about this: during Clinton’s second term, LORAL Corporation (a major US satellite mfg., and its president, applied for an export license for China). LORAL’s application was approved…and the technology transfer included critical guidance technology , which the Chinese used to make their ICBMs more accurate. Effectively, LORAL GAVE the Chinese information that saved them decades of R&D…and enabled them to target the USA with guided missles.So Clinton’s boast (that US cities were safe from nuclear attack) is adamned lie-he knew what the Chinese were up to and deliberately ignored the Loral matter. For this, Clinton deserves to be called the worst US president of modern history…of course,his apologists never mention this affair! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Mariachi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@El\_Mariachi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Mariachi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/3 "2004-01-07T15:39:45Z")
Hmm, do you have a link? I tried doing a google news search on ‘clinton’ and ‘loral’ but only came up with a financial times (uk) article that I need a subscription for and a Rush Limbaugh article. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/4 "2004-01-07T15:55:30Z")
The full story is a bit more complicated than that. First, despite the title of the OP, “Clinton” didn’t give or sell anything to anybody. His adminstration loosened restrictions on technology exports, and a few things got out that probably should not have. Congress (a Republican Congress, I should point out) conducted a full investigation, and found that while some information was passed to the Chinese by Loral, it didn’t amount to much. The CIA, in fact, said that Loral hadn’t given the Chinese much useful information, and even the Air Force said that the material given to the Chinese by Loral had increased their capabilities only incrementally. Additionally, Loral didn’t apply for an “export license” to give the Chinese the data in question. They were working with the Chinese, who had a missile failure that destroyed the Loral satellite it was carrying. The Loral techies faxed them some data that pointed to some ways to improve the missile’s reliability and performance. No one in the Clinton adminstration reviewed this data before it was faxed - they were never asked to do so. No “application” was approved. Ultimately, it’s worth noting that the Congress elected not to pursue the matter as part of the Clinton impeachment and, more to the point, didn’t refer any of it to the Justice Department. If there were a prosecutable offense in there somewhere, I’ve got to think that a referral to DOJ would have been a no-brainer. What the investigation _did_ lead to, on the other hand, was the realization that Chinese intelligence had been targeting U.S. technology for quite a while, and that some measures needed to be taken to protect sensitive information. The Loral incident, itself, was little more than a tiny pimple on an otherwise acne-ridden face. You can read all about it here: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/missile/keystories.htm](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/missile/keystories.htm). The stories are listed in reverse chronological order, so the first story listed is a final summary of Congress’ findings. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/5 "2004-01-07T15:56:43Z")
Let’s fight some ignorance right now. [http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/22/china.money/](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/22/china.money/) > [@](#): > > It’s a fact Loral Space and Communications hired the Chinese to launch one of their satellites two years ago because Chinese rocket launches are relatively cheap. Technically, that is an export of a U.S. satellite to China. > > But Loral says the Chinese never got their hands on the satellite itself. And Pentagon officials confirm sensitive technology was encased in a metal “black box” and watched over from factory to launch pad by Department of Defense employees. > > **There has been bipartisan support for such launches. President Ronald Reagan first initiated the policy 10 years ago. And President George Bush approved nine while Clinton has approved 11, according to the Congressional Research Service.** > > But concerns have heated up. To launch satellites, China used “Long March” boosters, the same ones they use for intercontinental nuclear missiles, some said to be aimed at U.S. cities. > > They weren’t very good. The one carrying Loral’s satellite blew up 30 seconds after launch on Feb. 15, 1996, costing Loral’s insurance companies about $200 million. > > Afterward Loral admits it gave the Chinese a written report about the cause of the rocket failure, without official clearance. A Pentagon office concluded in a still-secret report that “United States national security has been harmed,” according to government officials. And Loral confirms it is now under investigation by a federal grand jury as a result. > > And one House International Relations Committee source, speaking to CNN on background, said the committee plans to focus its investigation on this cooperation. > > Loral’s chairman Bernard Schwartz denies Loral did anything illegal. In its own defense, **Loral says Chinese engineers found the problem – the rocket failure was caused by bad solder joints – without Loral’s help.** And they say “no ‘secret’ or ‘classified’ information was ever discussed with the Chinese or included in any reports provided to the Chinese.” > > **Privately, Pentagon officials minimize the affair. One told CNN that the alleged harm to national security was "not significant or substantial … about a one or two on a scale of ten."** This is a favorite chestnut that gets dragged out by the Rabid Right, and it gets embellished with each telling. They are getting scared about the prospect of running against Howard Dean in the next election, and would prefer to run against Bill Clinton; having lost to him twice, they figure the third time is the charm. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/6 "2004-01-07T16:07:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > Effectively, LORAL GAVE the Chinese information that saved them decades of R&D…and enabled them to target the USA with guided missles. China has had ICBMs since at least 1981. [Cite.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/df-5.htm) You can’t blame Clinton for that. True, LORAL _may_ have made those missiles better, but with a 5 megaton warhead, their missiles really don’t need to be that accurate. Keep in mind that Chinese nuclear doctrine places literally zero importance on maintaining a counter-force arsenal: that is, the PRC isn’t going to target US ICBM silos. The Chinese target cities for their strategy of deterrence, which is pretty damn smart, since they probably have less than a couple dozen ICBMs. > [@](#): > > So Clinton’s boast (that US cities were safe from nuclear attack) is adamned lie-he knew what the Chinese were up to and deliberately ignored the Loral matter. You are misquoting. He often said that “there were no nuclear missiles _targeted_ at American cities.” That is, he claimed that China or Russia would have to first target their missiles before launching them, rather than just hitting the launch button. Kind of a pointless statement, since these weapons can be re-targeted in a matter of minutes. It seems more likely that LORAL employees acted incompetently in exceeding the scope of their export license. One can hardly blame Clinton for that. If we are to hold Presidents accountable for the illegal – or at least stupid – acts of employees of private corporations, then we should also indict Reagan for approving export licenses that allowed samples of extremely dangerous biological agents to be sold to Iraq during the mid-to-late 1980s. Actaully, since he was selling arms to two terrorist supporting nations, that’s probably a more severe blow to US national security, seeing as how we have gone on to fight two wars against one of those countries. And as far as giving nuclear weapons technology to North Korea, that allegation is silly. Clinton made a deal that would have resulted in the end of North Korea’s nuclear program in exchange for Japan and South Korea financing a light water nuclear reactor, which can be used for electricity, but has little to no use in a nuclear weapons program. That was in 1994. The light water reactors were never built, thus, quite obviously, have nothing to do with North Korea’s nuclear weapons program. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/7 "2004-01-07T16:16:11Z")
web (not news … it’s quite old now) search for “loral china technology” and you should find stuff. [http://www.loral.com/china-investigation.html](http://www.loral.com/china-investigation.html) Basically, here’s what happened: Intelsat, an international communications consortium, wanted to put a commercial communications satellite in orbit. Intelsat hired Loral to make the satellite. Intelsat hired the Chinese to launch the satellite. The Chinese used one of their Long March rockets, the same sort they would use to hit us with ICBMs. No shocker there, since the US and Russians have always used ICBM rockets for space launches. The US govt. (under Clinton) approved a waiver allowing the US company, Loral, to launch on a Chinese rocket. Both Bush Sr. and Clinton had approved a number of such waivers over the years. Problem: the launch failed (as rocket launches often do). The Chinese, being secretive, conducted a private investigation of the failure. They announced that the failure was caused by a low-tech problem: a failed solder joint. Insurers, among them US insurers, weren’t too happy with all this, and said they would not insure future launches w/o more data/assurances. So they set up a committee, including people from Loral, to request information from the Chinese so that they could make a better assessment. The Chinese complied, and, judging by the information they were given, the committee said, yep, it was that darned solder. Then the committee made a mistake: It sent a report back to the Chinese without first getting approval from the US Govt. (who has to sign off on all communications, apparently, in order to prevent unauth. tech. transfers). In the course of this committee’s work, they sent no techical data to the Chinese, made no suggestions about improving missile guidance systems, etc. It sounds like they just sent a report back on their findings, which were based on Chinese information and agreed with it. (I have not read the report, so yes, it’s possible that they said, “Oh, and by the way, if you recalibrate your guidance gyroscopes you’ll increase your accuracy by 45%…”) The main problem is that they failed to go through channels, and there was the risk that the Chinese could have gained technology secrets from us. But that does not seem to have happened. The further complication (isn’t there always one?) is that Loral/its founder was apparently a contributor to the Democrats (gasp! no govt. contractor has ever given money to the party in power…). ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/8 "2004-01-07T16:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Mariachi \* > \*\*I see conservatives complain about this all the time, yet I’ve never seen an article about it… \*\* Then where do you see it? I don’t think even Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan would say this, it’s so insane. I have heard people say he was irresponsibly lax in security, etc., which may or many not be true, but that’s nowhere near the same as saying he actively sold or gave secrets out. Do you have a cite where someone other than a crackpot conspiracy theorist actually alleges this? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Mariachi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@El\_Mariachi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Mariachi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/9 "2004-01-07T16:24:29Z")
Thank you. I tried to edit my post to say that I searched yahoo and got a bunch of stuff. Does anyone have anything else about this besides the launch? What about conservatives saying its clinton’s fault about the chinese person working at the one nuclear lab? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/10 "2004-01-07T16:25:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*Do you have a cite where someone other than a crackpot conspiracy theorist actually alleges this? \*\* Now, you wouldn’t be referring to our own **ralph124c** , now would you? That’s not allowed in GD. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Mariachi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@El\_Mariachi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Mariachi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/11 "2004-01-07T16:29:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*Then where do you see it? > > \*\* I see a bunch of peole on other internet forums complain about it 😉 I figured I’d have a better chance at actually getting PROOF on whether it actually happened or not, or what actually happened in the first place if i asked for help here. Oh, and Rush Limbaugh DID say _something_ about it (it was one of the two responses I got on the [news.google.com](http://news.google.com) search). Unfortunately I didn’t see what he said about it since I didn’t want to register. From the context of the title, it seems as if he’s regarding Clinton as a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/12 "2004-01-07T17:19:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Mariachi \* > \*\*Does anyone have anything else about this besides the launch? What about conservatives saying its clinton’s fault about the chinese person working at the one nuclear lab? \*\* That would be the case of [Wen Ho Lee](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-scheer23dec23,1,5954854.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions), a nuclear scientist at the Los Alamos atomic research facility, accused of leaking nuclear bomb secrets to the Chinese in 1999: > [@](#): > > \*\*Lee was held in solitary confinement for nine months before the government’s case collapsed and 58 of the 59 charges against him were dropped. The conservative Reagan-appointed judge in the case said in freeing Lee, “I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which you were held in custody by the executive branch.” > > [snip] > > In the end, in a plea bargain forced by prosecutors threatening Lee with life in prison, the scientist admitted to one count of mishandling government data. The data had not even been classified as secret when Lee mishandled it. But no matter, his reputation and career had been destroyed, leaving U.S. District Judge James Parker to conclude that the government’s treatment of Lee “embarrassed our entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.” \*\* This is yet another case of hysterical conservatives telling part of a story in order to smear the uninvolved. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Mariachi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@El\_Mariachi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Mariachi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/13 "2004-01-07T17:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*That would be the case of [Wen Ho Lee](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-scheer23dec23,1,5954854.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions), a nuclear scientist at the Los Alamos atomic research facility, accused of leaking nuclear bomb secrets to the Chinese in 1999: > > This is yet another case of hysterical conservatives telling part of a story in order to smear the uninvolved. \*\* omg thats it. Thanks! I love you. (not gay) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/14 "2004-01-07T17:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Mariachi \* > \*\*omg thats it. Thanks! I love you. (not gay) \*\* Not that there’s anything _wrong_ with that… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/15 "2004-01-07T17:53:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*I don’t think even Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan would say this, it’s so insane. I have heard people say he was irresponsibly lax in security, etc., which may or many not be true, but that’s nowhere near the same as saying he actively sold or gave secrets out. Do you have a cite where someone other than a crackpot conspiracy theorist actually alleges this? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*[Rush Limbaugh (including a caricature just for this purpose)\*](http://www.rushonline.com/clinton/clintonlegacy.htm) > We’ve seen Clinton/Gore sell and transfer > vital American nuclear and missile secrets to communist China. > Now they can hit the USA with their nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/16 "2004-01-07T18:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s fight some ignorance right now. Yeah. If a liberal news reporter said it, it must be true. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/17 "2004-01-07T18:43:07Z")
Great debate tactic there **Lib**. If you can’t fault the facts, go after the reporter. Everybody knows all Liberals™ are notorious liars. Ad Hominem, much? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/18 "2004-01-07T19:10:34Z")
That was pretty sad, Lib. Thanks for the great contribution to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Anal\_Scurvy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c57346/32.png) [@Anal\_Scurvy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anal_Scurvy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/19 "2004-01-07T20:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*Not that there’s anything _wrong_ with that… 😉 \*\* I don’t like wearing rubber pants. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211/20 "2004-01-07T20:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*Great debate tactic there **Lib**. If you can’t fault the facts, go after the reporter. Everybody knows all Liberals™ are notorious liars. > > Ad Hominem, much? \*\* Ad Verecundiam, much? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-clinton-really-sell-give-nuclear-missle-secrets-to-china-north-korea/223211.md?page=2)