# Did Condoleeza Rice ever have a "natural" black, unstraightened hairdo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 18, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722 "2005-02-18T15:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/41 "2005-02-19T14:54:53Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Which one is you? Both of you are _really_ pretty. (Note: I’m drunk and gay, so it doesn’t mean anything.) Well, I’m sober and straight, and I agree. Of course, I’m also old, so it probably _still_ doesn’t mean anything… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/42 "2005-02-19T14:55:54Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Apparently, I’ve lived a sheltered life. What does “high yella” mean? An Asian person? A light-skinned black person. Somewhere between “red bone” and “damn-near-white”. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/43 "2005-02-19T15:12:55Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Apparently, I’ve lived a sheltered life. What does “high yella” mean? An Asian person? Someone who can pass the Jack and Jill’s kraft paper grocery bag test. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/44 "2005-02-19T15:44:24Z")
Mentioning that Jack & Jill is a grocery store chain. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/45 "2005-02-19T15:54:27Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Someone who can pass the Jack and Jill’s kraft paper grocery bag test. A few years ago I wrote snopes regarding that (mythical) test. No reply. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/46 "2005-02-19T15:59:16Z")
Not long ago there were some photos of Ms. Rice ice skating which were linked to on the SDMB. I don’t remember her hair, but she otherwise looked _fine_ to me. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/47 "2005-02-19T16:00:21Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Mentioning that Jack & Jill is a grocery store chain. Not in the context of the reference. [Jack & Jill](http://www.jack-and-jill.org/) [Foreseeable Consequences of Recent Changes in the One-Drop Rule](http://www.webcom.com/~intvoice/sweet16.html) > [@](#): > > Many exclusive Black societies restricted their membership to those with complexions lighter than a kraft paper grocery bag Not that they do that anymore mind you. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/48 "2005-02-19T16:04:34Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > A few years ago I wrote snopes regarding that (mythical) test. No reply. > Peace, > mangeorge Mythical? Is it? I’d always heard it related as a somewhat obscure historical fact. Might be worth posting a GQ on it. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/49 "2005-02-19T16:22:44Z")
Yes, the reference _was_ to the grocery store chain. It’s about a _grocery bag_. That there happens to be a service organization also called Jack & Jill is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/50 "2005-02-19T16:23:10Z")
Google on “paper bag test.” It long predates Jack and Jill, and I don’t see where it has any connection to that organization. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/51 "2005-02-19T16:35:16Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Yes, the reference _was_ to the grocery store chain. It’s about a _grocery bag_. That there happens to be a service organization also called Jack & Jill is irrelevant. While I appreciate that Jack & Jill is also a grocery store, _I’m_ the one that made the reference about “Jack and Jill’s kraft paper grocery bag test”. I think I know what reference I intended even if (according to Mangetout) it’s historically questionable. Sorry for the confusion, and what may be an inaccurate historical reference. ---
**Author:** ![gbrohman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3be4f8/32.png) [@gbrohman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gbrohman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/52 "2005-02-19T16:50:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I see 0 reason to believe her hair has been straightened, chemical or otherwise. > > I’ll ask again: What do you think a black woman’s hair is supposed to look like? Would she look more “natural” with an afro? With Don King’s hair? I always was under the impression that Don King was a test pilot for the electric chair. Just a “RED NECK OBSERVATION” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/53 "2005-02-19T16:51:08Z")
I don’t know that Jack & Jill used the brown paper bag test, but there were some organizations that did. I remember hearing about certain churches that restricted their membership to only those who were darker than a brown paper bag. A teacher of mine once told the class about how Spellman College used to require photos of their applicants. Back in the day, preference was given to women who belonged to the “blue vein society”–people who had skin so light you could see their veins. Don’t know if it’s true, but it definitely is plausible. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/54 "2005-02-19T17:05:38Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I don’t know that Jack & Jill used the brown paper bag test, but there were some organizations that did. I remember hearing about certain churches that restricted their membership to only those who were darker than a brown paper bag. [QUOTE] Shoot. I mean “lighter than a brown paper bag”. ---
**Author:** ![gbrohman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3be4f8/32.png) [@gbrohman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gbrohman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/55 "2005-02-19T17:36:40Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I > I’ll ask again: What do you think a black woman’s hair is supposed to look like? Would she look more “natural” with an afro? With Don King’s hair? I always thought Don Kings mess was the result of him being a… Test pilot for the Electric Chair! ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/56 "2005-02-19T19:11:38Z")
What evidence is there that ethnically pure (whatever) West African men cannot grow big afros? Sounds like an urban myth to me. Bonus points for including Jack & Jill, Don King and Michael Jackson’s whittled nose in your response. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/57 "2005-02-19T19:40:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > A light-skinned black person. Somewhere between “red bone” and “damn-near-white”. Someone like Colin Powell, then. Right? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/58 "2005-02-19T19:58:52Z")
I meant for “mythical” to be a question. Forgot one little punctuation mark. Shoot me, but don’t ridicule me, OK! 😉 \< smiley that means “just kidding”. I did google the term back when I wrote snopes. A lot of “I heards” etc, but nothing official. Just like here, people who know of the test but no actual proof. I suspect a balm for the “White Man’s Burden”. 😉 Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/59 "2005-02-19T20:10:53Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > What evidence is there that ethnically pure (whatever) West African men cannot grow big afros? Sounds like an urban myth to me. There has to be a term for this kind of “it must be an urban myth” skepticism. I assure you it’s not an urban myth or legend. It may not be true–I am not claiming to be an expert–but that does not mean I’m perpetuating some well-distributed lie. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722/60 "2005-02-20T04:29:47Z")
> [@Gary T](#): > > Google on “paper bag test.” It long predates Jack and Jill, and I don’t see where it has any connection to that organization. [Jack and Jill](http://www.jack-and-jill.org/) is a national organization for the children of monied and largely elitist black people. Some branches were historically just that restrictive and discriminatory, according to Lawrence Otis Graham’s book [“Our Kind of People.”](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060984384/qid=1108873737/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-0845425-5963926?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) It is increasingly rare to experience that level of blatant intra-racial discrimination, but it still sometimes happen, both to dark-toned and light-toned African-Americans. These days you’re apt to run into more problems is you don’t seem “black enough” _ideologically._ **Diceman.** To me, Colin Powell isn’t “high yella”-- more like “ginger-colored.” **Carnac.** When I see pictures of people from Togo, Benin, Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon – black people, not just us mized folks in America – I don’t believe I’ve ever see anyone with both natural and tall hair. Modest sized afros? Sure. Big-assed afros? I’m leaning toward what **monstro** has said, though it may prove to be a generalization. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-condoleeza-rice-ever-have-a-natural-black-unstraightened-hairdo/290722.md?page=4)